Are unions really evil?

[Speedpup]

They are good and bad but need a balance on both sides of union vs. contractor. Corrupt unions suck but there are crooks in everything. In the masonry business I have a 138 Operating Engineers book for the Lulls. Only problem is if I am not on the job I cannot afford to pay an OE on a small job with 4-5 bricklayers. The cost would be prohibitive at over 90 per hour and 9 hours per day I am required to pay them. They get 8 straight and 1/2 hour grease time at double time. Bricklayers only work 7 hours so it makes the cost go through the roof. It makes my union masonry business uncompetive to non-union companies. If I have 4 bricklayers the OE would work an hour or less per day.

I know some parts of the country they have combination engineers and laborer book or the laborer does it with his book and no OE is required. Problem is in NY with prevailing wage laws they are weakly enforced unless they labor department gets a complaint. Unions can price themselves out of the business although they have had a strangle hold on road work on Long Island for years and years. The Union has taken a big beating in NYC area and it will get worse as times get tighter.

 

[digger242j]

Thanks, activeorpassive, for that lengthy and well thought out post on the question of whether to even discuss the "union/non-union" question.

It's a tough issue for the staff here to play referee on, as it does have a high potential to become inflamed, and we too all have our own set of experiences that we bring along with us.

The fact that we haven't yet added the issue to the same sort of "this is off-limits" forum policies that politics is in, is a testament to the trust we have in our members to be able to have discussions in a mature and civil manner, and to know when to disengage and "agree to disagree".

That having been said, I hope that all members, both long-time and newcomers, remain aware that that sort of trust only holds up until it's breached. If it comes to pass that change seems appropriate, we'll do what we need to do to keep things running smoothly.

 

[milling_drum]

Open ended

This topic may yield info pertinent to the continuation or demise of operators unions. The voice of the people is important to those in power. These forums provide just that.

 

[diggerop]

A slightly different perspective here. I've been a union member for just over 32 years , the last 25 in the mining industry. I know unions have good and bad sides, not evil. I won't go into who does what, when, where or why. Everyone who works and probably some who don't have the unions to thank for a lot of conditions and benefits that they work under and receive every day and don't realise it. Going back to the early days of coal mining in the 1920-30s it was the unions that got bathhouses on site, every work place has one now. There were no age limits, young boys of early teens worked to help support familys, sometimes because their father had been killed in the mine, and old men in their 70s worked under ground until they died because there were no pensions or any other benifits to support them if they didn't work. Unions started pension funds to support these old men so they could retire and live out their last few years without working. So age limits on entering and leaving the workforce and pensions were introduced. The pensions came about by just a few of the blokes collecting a few shillings to help out an old fellow who couldn't work anymore. 8 hour days is another one fought for and won by the unions. We're going backwards on that one lol, I know a lot of places 8 hour shifts don't work and other arrangments are aggred to. A lot of safety rules were fought for and won by the unions, even though the are run by goverment now. I and most union members have money deducted each pay to support nominated child welfare groups and rescue helicopters or other services, some which would not even exist otherwise. A lot of what we take for granted, pensions, superannuation, age limits, retirement age, hours of work, safety ect. came to be by union action. There will be some who will say I have my own retirement fund, I work my own hours, I'll look after my own safety, I'll work it out with the boss my self, thats good if you can, thats their choice but what about the new starter, maybe female, that can't or doesn't know whats what. Or that these things would have came about anyway, society would have demanded it anyway. Like it or not the unions are a part of that society. Just have a think about your wages and conditions and would it have been better, worse or the same without unions.

 

[diggerop]

Please don't look at that as a promotion for unionism, it's not, the first sentence is what it's about.

 

[basspro]

For me the local 3 is good, I am on the waiting list for the Apprenticeship program. For me there really seems to be no other way into operating. I called every place I could find, & as soon as they herd I had no exp. I got laughed at, hung up on, & got the look of "why the hell you wanna do this".

 

[basspro]

...just a follow up, When I applied, they said there is a 3 year waiting period, So I can't wait!!! I have been the ground guy quite a bit, but seems there is always someone that had been around longer, so they got the seat time. Very frustrating for me.

 

[John C.]

I've seen some companies that work very well with the unions. It is usually in construction where the general contractor doesn't have the means or want to go through the screening process of finding and hiring a competant work force. The local operating engineers is an example of that type of symbiotic relationship.

Where I have real problems is the stationary locals for shops and such. In these cases the unions are acting only as agents for the employees. In my experience I made a much better negotiator for myself than the local agent. My barganing power lay in my ability to make money for the company. The union only made sure that whatever extra income I produced was used to hide the dead weight in other parts of the employee base.

The last part of the union arguement that I have is in the handling of the pension funds. I lost a bunch of years because of time out of service. I came back in and vested and now I find out the pension fund is stressed and may not be solvent when I am ready for retirement.

So my advice for anyone looking at a union job is to go in with your eyes wide open and make sure all your questions are answered before you pack your lunch pail. It might be the best job you will ever get. Then again it also might be something else entirely.

 

[willie59]

I've seen some companies that work very well with the unions. It is usually in construction where the general contractor doesn't have the means or want to go through the screening process of finding and hiring a competant work force. The local operating engineers is an example of that type of symbiotic relationship.

Where I have real problems is the stationary locals for shops and such. In these cases the unions are acting only as agents for the employees. In my experience I made a much better negotiator for myself than the local agent. My barganing power lay in my ability to make money for the company. The union only made sure that whatever extra income I produced was used to hide the dead weight in other parts of the employee base.

The last part of the union arguement that I have is in the handling of the pension funds. I lost a bunch of years because of time out of service. I came back in and vested and now I find out the pension fund is stressed and may not be solvent when I am ready for retirement.

So my advice for anyone looking at a union job is to go in with your eyes wide open and make sure all your questions are answered before you pack your lunch pail. It might be the best job you will ever get. Then again it also might be something else entirely.

Hey John C.
I'm right there with you on the pension fund, that's the part that irks my nerves! I vested with 11 yrs in the Operating Engineers, took a withdrawl in '96, had $32,000 and change in pension fund. Anyone want to guess what it will be when I retire and begin to draw on it??? Here's a hint: $32,000 and some change! I doesn't earn even one copper penny of growth, at least, for me. But I can guarantee that money that came out of my check is invested in something that earns interest. Just not for me/us.

 

[surfer-joe]

Some states, the operators do a lot better than others. In Arizona, plain operators are only in the 22-25 dollar an hour range. Operators here no longer have a real pension plan, only a 401k for newer hands. So guess what? This week the plan sends me a letter stating that they have lost a ton of money in the market and in their funds. Like who hasn't you know? My account here is way down fer sure. But so is my local 3 account.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see an attempt in this congress to overturn Davis-Bacon, with a shove by the administration as they try to stretch their bucks to get people employed and paying taxes. I think that would not be too bad if they don't get out of hand and demand that we work as cheap as the Chinese, like they are practically demanding of the UAW autoworkers. On the other hand, union organizing may become a little easier. We'll see.

Like Steve, I've had some bad experiences with some unions and locals, on the other hand, I've also had some good luck with certain others. A lot depends on the lads running the locals.