416C Cat Backhoe, heater not blowing warm air, is there a switch?

[Dougie G]

I am quoting Nige's comment from the thread I posted a link to.
"There is no valve shown other than the control valve over the rear axle which is installed in the gap between the 2 hoses at the top left (ringed in red). I would check where the hoses come out of the engine block, shown as Area B, just to make sure that nobody has sneaked a shuftoff valve in there. If you find no valve then the next step would be to disconnect the feed and return hoses at the cylinder block and try to blow through one of them. It should blow coolant out of the other. If it doesn't then either your control valve that"
Did you look for that valve over the rear axle ??

Like Delmer says make sure the engine is actually getting hot, not just a little warm to the touch but after working hard for half an hour you should not want to keep a bare hand on the side of the block.

This is one of those time a cheap IR temp gauge could pay for itself fast. Not sure if you guys have Harbor Freight up in BC but something like this: https://www.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-93984.html

I have to remember to pick one up for at home now that I don't have access to the one we had at the shop!

If engine is getting hot but the heater hoses are just a little warm I would say as other have that something is restricting flow. Might just have to hook a garden hose to one of the heater hoses with the other end unhooked and go through the system one step at a time till you find the restriction, be it a valve not working or plugged core or kinked hose.

Hi, I do have an inferred thermometer, that is how I checked the hoses and the block. After idling for 45 minutes on half idle, I think the block was at 65 to 73 degrees or so and so were the hoses. That seems too cool, but maybe it needs to be worked to heat up. So tomorrow I'll work it for a while and then check the temperatures on the block and the hoses. I did look at the valve over the rear axle, it has a cable going to it and is a plastic type valve. I was by myself so I had no one to move the control inside for me but I moved it myself and went back and looked and it seemed to be moving as it should, but then my flash light went dead.

 

[Dougie G]

Don't know about a rear axle valve for the heater, but SIS shows that valve at the block I mentioned

View attachment 176713

What is SIS? Are you referring to the brass "T" valve?
I can't make out the diagram very good. Is that #4 and is this the shut of valve for the heater core?

 

[Dougie G]

I am quoting Nige's comment from the thread I posted a link to.
"There is no valve shown other than the control valve over the rear axle which is installed in the gap between the 2 hoses at the top left (ringed in red). I would check where the hoses come out of the engine block, shown as Area B, just to make sure that nobody has sneaked a shuftoff valve in there. If you find no valve then the next step would be to disconnect the feed and return hoses at the cylinder block and try to blow through one of them. It should blow coolant out of the other. If it doesn't then either your control valve that"
Did you look for that valve over the rear axle ??

I didn't see a valve in area B

 

[Dougie G]

Can these machines even run properly with out a thermostat?

 

[Delmer]

NO, they should have a thermostat in any climate. I can't guess what temp it should be after idleing, because I don't know the outside temp, and any number of factors about the engine.

Work it for half an hour, the block should be 160 or higher, and it should stay 160 after idling for 5-10 minutes. The block and hoses at 73 tells nothing about whether the heater is working, and not much about a thermostat working either.

Sis is the online Cat parts lookup etc. There's a thread 'tips and tricks for SIS" or something like that. #4 is a T valve that must be open for the heater to work, but check the temp after working first.

 

[Tinkerer]

Did you read Nige's post in that thread closely ? He said the valve is located in the gap in the hoses. It is in the red circle by 2a and1

 

[kshansen]

What is SIS?

I actually had to check to see what SIS stood for! "Service Information System"

This is an online service from Cat that depending on what level of access you have can be anything from say an online parts book up to access of all those secret service bulletins the dealer does not want to have you know about.

Might be worth it to talk to you dealer and see what they can offer you. I have no idea of any costs as I was given access where I worked and I think I have a middle of the road account as I can see a good amount of stuff but there are a few others on this site that have much better access than I do. I'm not about to hassle the local dealer as I retired close to three years back and I'm still working off the companies account. Make waves and they might cut me off!

 

[Dougie G]

I actually had to check to see what SIS stood for! "Service Information System"

This is an online service from Cat that depending on what level of access you have can be anything from say an online parts book up to access of all those secret service bulletins the dealer does not want to have you know about.

Might be worth it to talk to you dealer and see what they can offer you. I have no idea of any costs as I was given access where I worked and I think I have a middle of the road account as I can see a good amount of stuff but there are a few others on this site that have much better access than I do. I'm not about to hassle the local dealer as I retired close to three years back and I'm still working off the companies account. Make waves and they might cut me off!

Ok, thanks for looking into that. I miss having manuals

 

[Dougie G]

I didn't have a chance to run the machine today. I do recall the brass "T" valve beside the injected pump was not screwed all the way out, but almost. Also in the cab where the heater core is enclosed there is a trap door facing the rear of the machine. On opening it you can see tubes coming from the heater core. You can put your hand in there and feel them for temperature. They were warmish but not hot, although the machine had not been worked. I did not see any valves in there.

 

[Delmer]

once the engine is hot to the touch, feel the heater core, that will tell you if the coolant is circulating or not, go from there.

If the engine never hits 160 working in cold temps, you need a thermostat.

If the engine gets hot, but the heater core doesn't, then find and open the valves, SIS HAS SPOKEN, either you have those valves, or they were removed, or the diagram is wrong, which do you think is most likely.

 

[Dougie G]

once the engine is hot to the touch, feel the heater core, that will tell you if the coolant is circulating or not, go from there.

If the engine never hits 160 working in cold temps, you need a thermostat.

If the engine gets hot, but the heater core doesn't, then find and open the valves, SIS HAS SPOKEN, either you have those valves, or they were removed, or the diagram is wrong, which do you think is most likely.

Makes sense. Have you changed the thermostats on these? Should be straight forward. Not sure what temp thermostat is required for central BC. I would imagine there is one in it, but maybe a cooler one for the coast. Or the one in it is stuck open. I wonder what the torque values are for the housing bolts?
The diagram looks right and there is one valve, but it was pretty much fully open, but it did open one full turn more.

 

[kshansen]

Not sure if you had posted a S/N, looked fast through thread but did not see it.

But here is an example of at least one 416C thermostat arraignment:



NOTE: There are no optional regulators shown, would be very unusual to me to see different temp ranges these days. I put X's in the form for the seals you would need to replace the regulator.

ALSO NOTE: That 152-8002 regulator part number does change to a 220-2748 part number

 

[Dougie G]

Not sure if you had posted a S/N, looked fast through thread but did not see it.

But here is an example of at least one 416C thermostat arraignment:

View attachment 176770

NOTE: There are no optional regulators shown, would be very unusual to me to see different temp ranges these days. I put X's in the form for the seals you would need to replace the regulator.

ALSO NOTE: That 152-8002 regulator part number does change to a 220-2748 part number

Hi Kshansen, The serial number is 1WR03918. Does that look correct? Thanks

 

[Delmer]

Yes, one temp, 160 was the minimum in years past, more likely 185 these days. Looks like a standard thermostat, that will help, but work it first to know if yours is working or not. Then go after the heater.

 

[Dougie G]

I had a chance to run the machine today, I was plowing snow, not working it too hard. After running it for about an hour, I checked the temperature at the block using an inferred thermometer. The hottest was 99 degrees Fahrenheit. So it seems I need to replace the water temperature regulator (thermostat). Any idea what to torque the bolts at? I hope its and easy fix. I've seen other post about these having leak issues in this area. I did feel the tubes near the heater core and they are fairly warm as they are exposed to fresh air under the machine. Also the brass T valve was not completely open so I opened it and the heater blew slightly warm air.
It can't be good for a diesel to run cool like that?

 

[Bluox]

If you order your regulator from Cat ask to include all the seals and gaskets you need and to print a parts page and the r&r page from the service manual and put them in your parts sack.
Bob

 

[Dougie G]

I had a chance to run the machine today, I was plowing snow, not working it too hard. After running it for about an hour, I checked the temperature at the block using an inferred thermometer. The hottest was 99 degrees Fahrenheit. So it seems I need to replace the water temperature regulator (thermostat). Any idea what to torque the bolts at? I hope its and easy fix. I've seen other post about these having leak issues in this area. I did feel the tubes near the heater core and they are "fairly warm" as they are exposed to fresh air under the machine. Also the brass T valve was not completely open so I opened it and the heater blew slightly warm air.
It can't be good for a diesel to run cool like that?

I meant to write, the tubes near the heater core were barely warm. Spell check is crap

 

[Delmer]

Barely warm is just under 100 degrees in my book. Was the engine block just warm to the touch also? Get the thermostat in there, you'll have 170 water going through the heater, and plenty of heat. Or other problems that are easier to find.

No it's not good to run that cool.

 

[kshansen]

Barely warm is just under 100 degrees in my book. Was the engine block just warm to the touch also? Get the thermostat in there, you'll have 170 water going through the heater, and plenty of heat. Or other problems that are easier to find.

No it's not good to run that cool.

Yea, if you get engine temp up to around 180ºF you will be running that machine in shirt sleeves!

Doug, sorry I did not get back on the part numbers for your S/N. I looked again and see there appears to be some changes. Looks like one seal number has changed and an additional ring used. I'd double check with dealer to see if they have any information relating to an "update".

 

[AllDodge]

If you housing happens to be a composite like mine, just snug the bolts good. If the housing isn't leaking I wouldn't remove it, just the thermostat next as pictured above. Don't know the torque spec.