Which SSLs have Creep Mode?

[HandLogger]

After researching SSLs and CTLs for quite some time, it has just come to my attention that there may be more to accomplishing our main goal -- the removal of large amounts of snow in a mountainous environment -- than we thought.

In short, I've now been told that an SSL -- even one equipped with high-flow hydraulics -- will "over run" even the highest performing snowblower attachments. In other words, unless the SSL can be made to move at a very slow yet constant pace, the snowblower will eventually "stall" (for lack of a better word).

I was recently test-operating a CAT D-Series SSL and I noticed that it had a yellow button on one joystick. When I asked the sales guy about the purpose of the button, he told me that it was for "creep mode." I didn't think much of it, at the time, but given what we've just been told about using an SSL to operate a snowblower properly, it would seem that the creep mode feature is going to be of critical importance when it comes to our main goal.

Bearing this in mind, I'd like to ask the board about which SSL manufacturers equip their machines with creep mode capability?

Needless to say, the SSL I already mentioned, a CAT 272D3 XE, can be equipped in this way. I've also read that some of the Deere SSLs have creep mode. If anyone reading this has any experience in this regard -- or simply knows of brands that are well-suited for operating high-flow snowblowers -- I'd love to read your thoughts on the matter.

Thank you for your time.

 

[seville009]

I use a front blower on my skidsteer (high flow) for personal snow removal in a lake affect snow region. There can be so many changes in the snow (drifting, density, slush, hard snow) when making a pass that I constantly adjust the forward movement speed, so having a creep mode probably wouldn’t be of much use because I would probably continue to override it

It may be completely different with a large machine doing mountain roads, of course.

 

[Mobiltech]

if You’re running a rubber tired skid steer with snow blower in anything unlevel your biggest problem will be steering . I’ve run a 262 snowblowing a driveway and if you get off the road at all you can’t steer it back because it just spins the low side drive wheels.

 

[phil314]

My bobcat S650 with joysticks has speed management. You can set the wheel speed separate from the engine speed.
Speed can be set at between 1-99. At setting 1, it's hard to tell the machine is moving. At 99 your running almost normal speed. 50 is about half speed.

 

[KSSS]

I use a front blower on my skidsteer (high flow) for personal snow removal in a lake affect snow region. There can be so many changes in the snow (drifting, density, slush, hard snow) when making a pass that I constantly adjust the forward movement speed, so having a creep mode probably wouldn’t be of much use because I would probably continue to override it

It may be completely different with a large machine doing mountain roads, of course.

I was going to say the same thing. We do mountain roads and cabins almost exclusively with our blower. Creep has a place but I don't think snow blowing is necessarily the most productive use of it due the typically changing conditions. By changes not only in depth but density, both are a factor. I run an 84" Quick Attach high flow blower on a highflow TR340 tracked machine and a high flow SV340 wheeled machine. These machines make about 40 gpm at 3500 psi. Even with the large blower, modulating the speed isn't so critical like it would be running a cold planer. It is pretty simple you watch the snow flying out of the chute, if the stream starts to fall off in speed and volume you slow down. The set up I have will throw snow a legit 45-50' in cold conditions. If your a super green operator maybe the speed nanny would keep you from plugging, but you would find yourself having to continual change the speed setting to keep productivity high. It can be a slow process anyway, going slower than you need to be makes it less productive. The colder the conditions are the better the snow blows. When the snow gets wet and sticky is when plugging becomes more of an issue but watching the stream of snow like I mentioned will keep you out of trouble. The machine will tell you if your going to plug. Having a machine that puts out enough flow is a bigger factor in blowing performance and matching the size of the blower to the machine of course is also important. The machines that I personally know that have creep are BC and CAT,. The BC has in my view the best creep system. If you still believe you need creep, run the machines that have it and understand how it works and judge from there. The way the different OEM's have adapted it are not the same. Some are clearly more thought out than others.

 

[HandLogger]

KSSS ..... Thanks for the really excellent post. You've contributed to our threads in the past -- and I honestly appreciate it. One of the reasons that this particular post is so useful to us is the fact that you seem to have experience with CASE machines. That's quite a coincidence, actually, because our [nearly] year long search for a dependable heavy snow removal system has lead us to a CASE SV340. In fact, I have a work order for one on my laptop right now...awaiting my signature.

I was all set to sign the paperwork, but decided to run it by a friend of ours out in upstate NY first -- and he's the one that told us about stalling the snowblower and, coming full circle, the need for creep speed control. Another reason why this post is of so much use to us is because we, too, were going to purchase an Erskine (a.k.a., Quick Attach) snowblower. Specifically, we were all set to add an 85" Erskine 2420XL as our snow removal implement.

Okay, so I see that you've been using both a wheeled CASE SSL (SV340) and a CASE CTL (TR340) for snow removal. My first question is: Which type of machine do you prefer for sloping conditions? Are the tracks an issue when the snow turns to ice? We have a long (500') asphalt drive and two forest access roads to keep open. All three situations included grade changes in excess of 10 percent; hence, the question about using either a wheeled SSL or a tracked CTL on sloping surfaces.

Considering that we have to keep any machine we invest in busy in the warms months, as well, I'd like to get your thoughts on whether you prefer wheels or tracks for other "non-snow-related" tasks? I also see that your SV340 and your TR340 are vertical lift and radial lift, respectively. As it would also be of great use to us, please write back with your thoughts on the differences and/or pros and cons of the two lifting designs. Although you may already know this, KSSS, we've been using our CAT 420D to "move" snow for years now. The point here is that we're effectively new to compact machines, so your thoughts about being "super green" will probably apply to us ... at least for a while. Thanks again for your time, and I'm really looking forward to anything else you might be wiling to share with us.

 

[HandLogger]

My bobcat S650 with joysticks has speed management. You can set the wheel speed separate from the engine speed.
Speed can be set at between 1-99. At setting 1, it's hard to tell the machine is moving. At 99 your running almost normal speed. 50 is about half speed.

Phil314 ..... Thanks for posting about your Bobcat S650. My dear departed Dad owned a Bobcat many years ago and we used it around the farm. It's been so many years back now that, quite frankly, I don't even recall the model number. The controls were mechanical, as I recall, so it was really a whole different machine compared to the new CASE SV340 and TV450 we recently tested out. If Bobcat has a good creep control system, perhaps we should give them a look. I do like the CASE machines for use in the warm months, however.

 

[phil314]

Phil314 ..... Thanks for posting about your Bobcat S650. My dear departed Dad owned a Bobcat many years ago and we used it around the farm. It's been so many years back now that, quite frankly, I don't even recall the model number. The controls were mechanical, as I recall, so it was really a whole different machine compared to the new CASE SV340 and TV450 we recently tested out. If Bobcat has a good creep control system, perhaps we should give them a look. I do like the CASE machines for use in the warm months, however.

I use mine to plow snow with a blade. So I actually don't use the creep mode, but it has it. With a blade, I'm usually looking for as much speed as I can get. Make the snow roll off the plow better. The one thing that made a massive difference on my machine was snow tires. They increase ground clearance and speed. And have a LOT more traction. And they are easier to swap than tracks. I can push a lot of snow with those tires. Here a couple pics for comparison and a video on me plowing my driveway. It's got a steep uphill section and I can now plow it going uphill.

 

[HandLogger]

Phil314 ..... It looks like you have you hands full there during the winter months! That's a lot of drive that you're dealing with, as well. If our drive was that long, I don't know what we would do with all of it, which is exactly why we hope to go the snowblower route. You've got plenty of room, on the other hand, so you've come up with a great solution for your place. Thanks a lot for contributing again.

 

[KSSS]

KSSS ..... Thanks for the really excellent post. You've contributed to our threads in the past -- and I honestly appreciate it. One of the reasons that this particular post is so useful to us is the fact that you seem to have experience with CASE machines. That's quite a coincidence, actually, because our [nearly] year long search for a dependable heavy snow removal system has lead us to a CASE SV340. In fact, I have a work order for one on my laptop right now...awaiting my signature.

I was all set to sign the paperwork, but decided to run it by a friend of ours out in upstate NY first -- and he's the one that told us about stalling the snowblower and, coming full circle, the need for creep speed control. Another reason why this post is of so much use to us is because we, too, were going to purchase an Erskine (a.k.a., Quick Attach) snowblower. Specifically, we were all set to add an 85" Erskine 2420XL as our snow removal implement.
Yes the Erskine and QA blower on one and the same. Its a good blower, when you order it speced to a specific machine it will arrive plug and play. The chute controls interface with the electric/hydraulic switches on the machine. It is not as HD as some blowers on the market but I have had mine for years with no issues, just keep it out of gravel or rocks. Its a pleasure to run.

Okay, so I see that you've been using both a wheeled CASE SSL (SV340) and a CASE CTL (TR340) for snow removal. My first question is: Which type of machine do you prefer for sloping conditions? Are the tracks an issue when the snow turns to ice? We have a long (500') asphalt drive and two forest access roads to keep open. All three situations included grade changes in excess of 10 percent; hence, the question about using either a wheeled SSL or a tracked CTL on sloping surfaces. The tracked machine is a challenge in those conditions. Case in point, last year I used the CTL on a cabin access project with steep grades. The machine struggled getting up the slope. I drove the machine up in the deep snow and blew down hill. I got it done but wasn't ideal. The wheeled machine with chains is much better, it was on another job or I would have used it for that project. I have never run the snow specific tracks.

Considering that we have to keep any machine we invest in busy in the warms months, as well, I'd like to get your thoughts on whether you prefer wheels or tracks for other "non-snow-related" tasks? I also see that your SV340 and your TR340 are vertical lift and radial lift, respectively. As it would also be of great use to us, please write back with your thoughts on the differences and/or pros and cons of the two lifting designs. Although you may already know this, KSSS, we've been using our CAT 420D to "move" snow for years now. The point here is that we're effectively new to compact machines, so your thoughts about being "super green" will probably apply to us ... at least for a while. Thanks again for your time, and I'm really looking forward to anything else you might be wiling to share with us.

The CASE Alpha machines are the best cold starting SSL I have owned. I have never had an issue cold starting if that pertains to you. I can leave a machine in subzero weather on a jobsite and never have to wonder if it will start in the AM. Just let the hydraulics warm up before you move them or an alarm will go off. I prefer the radial machines for fine grading, the site lines are much cleaner, easier to see around the wheels/tracks when bouncing around plumbing when grading for interior building slabs, also less moving parts. The vertical machine gives me more reach into dump trucks, and I do a lot of truck loading. More lift capacity is also a benefit of vertical lift when comparing two equally sized machines (the other being radial lift). That is why I got one of each. The learning curve is fast, the ability to tailor the machine response speed to your skill level is a huge help and easy to do. Also the ability to switch from ISO to H without added cost can be a bonus if you have operators with different pattern preferences like I do.

I see you are contemplating the TV450 as well. Let me give you some insight that might help. The SV340 and TV450 have the same hyd system. This new system is outstanding. Larger pump and better plumbing has been a world of difference, bucket breakout is outstanding. I run 84" buckets and the SV340 breaks immediately out of any pile you can stick it into. The TR340 has the older hyd system. Works fine for blowing snow but it struggles keeping cool with other high flow applications like mulching and running High Flow Diamond mower in tough conditions. I have pushed the SV340 hard and have had zero issues with it in demanding high flow applications. Again you would not notice these improvements as much blowing snow as the TR340 has no issue with the large blower. Unless CASE makes those hyd improvements on the TR340, my next tracked machine will be the TV450 as I demoed one this Summer. I was also part of a customer clinic when that machine was developed. I loved it then, and the production model is every bit as impressive. Both my machines have been largely trouble free. The bolt holding the tilt cylinder sheared on the TR340, that has been redesigned on later models, it has 1000 hours. The SV340 has been trouble free to the first 600 hours where it is currently at and this includes SCR issues. I have had none. I add DEF, work the hell out of them and no problems. Another nice feature of these engines is there is no DPF on top of SCR. They are SCR only so one less issue to contend with.
As to what I prefer to run, it really depends on what I am doing. I will say I try to do as much with the wheeled machine as possible. Evident as the tracked machine is a year older and the wheeled machine has nearly caught it on hours. Wheeled is cheaper to buy and cheaper to run. But some times a tracked machine is the best solution for a project. If I could only own one it would be the wheeled machine, but I live and work in high desert conditions and do a lot of concrete removal, I would rent a CTL when it was necessary. Working in some other location that might be completely opposite. I would demo the wheeled machine and see if it fits for you, like I said its cheaper to buy and run. If it works for majority of what you need it for, I would go that direction. If you do go wheeled, my suggestion is to run the 14X17.5 tires in the dirt but get a set of the 12's as well. The 14's really hook up in the dirt, much faster overall speed, and provide much more floatation than do the 12X16.5's. I run the large tires most often but I do have a set of 12X16.5's, I run those with chains in the winter (chains are cheaper and easier to find in 12's) and when running on concrete /asphalt for extended periods of time (cheaper to replace and the machine spins around easier with the smaller tires than it does the bigger tires).

Hopefully I have answered your questions adequately.

 

[HandLogger]

KSSS ..... As I did a lot of phone calling and other research earlier today, I'm not as alarmed as I was about the lack of creep mode. That being the case, I'm back to the CASE brand.

Unfortunately, my research today also indicated that I may be looking at the wrong type of machine. I had more than one person I spoke to ask me why I wanted a wheeled machine (SSL) instead of a tracked machine (CTL) ... and, after explaining our situation a few times, I began to see the point about using a wheeled machine on imperfect gravel roads during the non-snow months. In short, I've got a feeling that we''ll be beat to death inside of the SV340 SSL, so now I'm back to considering a tracked machine. In fact, I followed your lead (after reading your first post) and asked for a quote on a TR340.

I haven't mentioned it before, but I want the board to know that I spent quite a few [very] cold days on my back correcting a major government-mandated flaw that came with my Cummins work truck: a ruptured CEGR cooler, a clogged DPF and a clogged intake grid heater. I could literally write a book about this, but let it suffice to say that it cost us thousands in actual dollars and in lost time. The point here is that I've learned way more than any man should ever have to about the EPA-mandated emissions systems that all of our diesel engines are being choked with, including our work equipment engines.

If you happen to know more about which CASE SSL or CTL models come with better emissions systems than others, please write back with what you know. As you indicated in your last reply, I was told that both the SV340 and the TV450 have an "SCR-only" system, which I think is a great idea under the circumstances. The TR340, on the other hand, comes with a more complicated emissions system: and that makes me nervous. Put plainly, I don't want to put our hard-earned into any machine that's going to end up half-choked by a clogged emissions issue. I understand that you really like the TV450, but that machine may be out of our budget, so my main worry (for now) is about the smaller CASE CTLs -- the TR340 and the TR380 -- but I'd love to read anything you might know about any machine in the compact CASE line.

As ever, thank you very much for your time.

 

[KSSS]

The simplest emission systems comes on those machines under 75 hp and this applies across the board to all OEMs. The SV280 (wheeled) and TV370 (tracked) are large frame machines at the 75 hp limit. These machines are DOC only, which is essentially like a Catalytic converter on car with no DPF filter, unlike some others that run DOC and DPF. I have never owned one of these machines but have had them on rent, I had a TR310 for a Summer last year. The no DEF is nice and if you don't need the high hp they work very well. The TR340 is an SCR (DEF) machine going back to the Tier 4 Interim which had a DPF. Prior to that, they were Tier 3 machines and the 340 was then a TR320 (which I also owned in 2012). I have never run these DOC only machines on a blower but the specs are good and I am sure that they run a blower just fine. I will also say that these machines, both wheeled and tracked are equipped with ride control. A system that when activated, allows the loader arms to act as shock absorbers reducing the bouncing the operator feels in the cab. It is very effective. You demo it by putting a load in the bucket and go across uneven ground at speed and see for yourself. If the SCR system concerns you, and you want a CTL, I would look at the TV370. It's the most machine you can get in capacity and size and stay under 75hp and out of SCR.

 

[HandLogger]

KSSS ..... As I'm now being pressed by the CASE dealer to make a decision by the 27th [the old "end of the month" routine], I'd like to get a bit more specific about which machines we're actually looking closely at. After reading your last and speaking directly to our regional CASE rep, we're looking at either the CASE TR340 (Radial Lift) or the TV450 (Vertical Lift) ... And please don't mind the information that you obviously know -- I'm adding that for others who may read this in the future ... Your words about the new hydraulics system in the two biggest CASE compact loaders being made as I write this -- the SV340 and the TV450 -- are well taken and, quite frankly, that's what I'm struggling with. If the TR340 comes with an inferior/older hydraulics system, I don't want to put our money into that machine. If the TV450, on the other hand, runs attachments without cooling issues, that may be the machine for us.

Quite frankly, we were looking at the TR340 because it and the SV340 (your machine) have similar lifting specifications: at a lower price. Your TR340 seems to be fine with your snowblower, but, just as you've indicated, the machine gets used for other things. Being in the forest management business, we may very well have occasion to run forestry mulchers/cutters that will tax the hydraulics system more than a snowblower does, so, once again, your words have been very helpful. If you would kindly remark on my understanding of the differences between the hydraulics systems that come with the TR340 versus the hydraulics system that comes with the big TV450, I'd be much obliged. Thanks again for your great posts.

 

[KSSS]

Give me a little bit to get the tech details together. I can spec in generalities, but I will post the details.

 

[HandLogger]

Thank you, my friend. I'm literally sitting here with work orders for three CASE machines: the SV340 SSL, the TR340 CTL and the big TV450 CTL.

The price difference between the two "340s" is roughly $3K ... as in the price for the TR340 jumps up $3K over the SV340. Add an additional $4,400 to get the big 450.

 

[KSSS]

The major differences are in the larger pump and the 500 psi increase in relief pressure. The increase in psi means less going over relief and thus keeping the hydraulics more cool. Makes sense, when running demanding high flow attachments with the TR340 or the SV300 I had before the SV340 it was the hyd fluid that got warm no issues with coolant.

If you your going to run high demand attachments like mulchers, I would get either the SV340 or TV450. If the most demand your will realistically put on the machine is the snow blower, you may be overspending on the 450 and the TR340 would be plenty. Honestly the price difference you posted doesn't seem unreasonable between the different models, but it all adds up.

 

[HandLogger]

KSSS ..... After testing the CASE TR340 and the SV340 today, we decided to go with the SV340. I did a lot of high-speed back-drag grading with both units and, this time around, I wasn't as disturbed by the ride of the SV340 as I was when I tested it directly against the TV450. After getting out of the TR340 (today), I immediately jumped into the cab of the SV340 and, quite frankly, I'm glad that I did that. It made for a really good comparison and, thinking back on it now, I believe I was "won over" by the cycle time of the SSL over the CTL. As you already know, getting back to the start of one's grading work in an SSL takes substantially time less than it does in a CTL. As you've already mentioned, I'm sure that the SV340 we purchased will handle just about anything we can attach to it, especially when you consider that it's equipped with the enhanced high-flow (35.0 gpm @ 4000 psi) hydraulic option.

Thanks very much for all of your informative posts, and I hope to get back to the HEF with positive results during the upcoming winter season.

 

[KSSS]

The SV340 is one heck of machine. They are fast, and if you have everything on max speed on the console they are even faster. Hopefully the salesman demonstrated the RIDE CONTROL feature. Makes a huge difference. With the Enhanced High Flow you got the power and PSI to get the most out of any skid steer mounted mulcher. What tires does it come with?

 

[HandLogger]

KSSS ..... As I mentioned in the last post, I did some repeated back-drag grading with the SV340 and, as you mentioned in your last post, it was fast. I don't know what you mean when you write "...have everything on max speed on the console...," however. I will be sure to get the dude who comes when the machine is delivered on Tuesday to actually demonstrate the RIDE CONTROL feature for us. I'm not sure about the tires, either, but I'll get back to the thread after the machine is delivered ... and I do feel good about having every hydraulic feature that CASE currently offers on their SSLs and CTLs. Have a great week.

 

[KSSS]

Make sure they show you how to utilize the Enhanced High Flow. It is more than just flipping the switch on the console. Have them show you how the EZ/EH works so you can adjust the machine speed settings which is what I was getting at with max speed at the console.