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What is it with welders

Blue-Fox

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Joined
Dec 27, 2022
Messages
159
Location
99611
Occupation
Oilfield Owner/Operator
What would posess a guy (full grown man) to think he can bid a job and say 12 hours tops, have her done by monday (working the weekend) and then go do an incomplete job and leave the machine stacked half done for a week, while hes out of the field and come back to the office with a bill for 30 hours, demanding payment and say hes got 38 hours in the job but giving me a break?? I seen what he welded and he did good work. But left my machine stacked for a week! Damn good thing I didnt need it. I would have had to cut his work off and send it out.
 

Vetech63

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
6,440
Location
Oklahoma
If I had quoted that job, it would have been 12 hours regardless. If he was going to run over on the billing time, you should have been notified of that. Hell, if he was that far of on his quote........he shouldn't be quoting anything. Learn a lesson from this. Thes types end up going under in a hurry doing business like that.
 

1693TA

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
2,687
Location
Farmington IL
Occupation
FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
Initial bidding needs to be in writing. I never give the option of paying by the hour as it's never favorable to someone. Of course close friendships are another matter but an open bid needs to be in writing and a scope of expectations needs included.
 

willie59

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Dec 21, 2008
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13,400
Location
Knoxville TN
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Service Manager
I have serious questions with the welder who "did good work". My main question, I've never liked doing "quotes" for work, as unforseen problems can cause overage. For that reason, anytime I've had to quote my labor I ALWAYS pad my hours high to account for unforseen overage. My point? With "his" quote, 12 hrs, he should have knocked the job out in 6, or at the most 8 hrs. Him demanding 38, what the &%##?
 

1693TA

Senior Member
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Feb 27, 2010
Messages
2,687
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Farmington IL
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FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
I have serious questions with the welder who "did good work". My main question, I've never liked doing "quotes" for work, as unforseen problems can cause overage. For that reason, anytime I've had to quote my labor I ALWAYS pad my hours high to account for unforseen overage. My point? With "his" quote, 12 hrs, he should have knocked the job out in 6, or at the most 8 hrs. Him demanding 38, what the &%##?
Exactly. You can always reduce your final pricing but it's difficult to go "up" many times. Not always as people tend to be fair if the increase is easily justified.
 

Blue-Fox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2022
Messages
159
Location
99611
Occupation
Oilfield Owner/Operator
Initial bidding needs to be in writing. I never give the option of paying by the hour as it's never favorable to someone. Of course close friendships are another matter but an open bid needs to be in writing and a scope of expectations needs included.
Yeah I would never approve an open ticket on a job, well there's maybe one guy I would let go that way because I known him long enough and his means of business is honest.
 

Blue-Fox

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Joined
Dec 27, 2022
Messages
159
Location
99611
Occupation
Oilfield Owner/Operator
That is the key-So the guy can do good work, which means he's not a rookie, and should
understand biding a job, So either can weld but is business inept or a drunk and business
inept--or just a drunk that can weld.
I think its a combo of all of the above.
 

willie59

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Dec 21, 2008
Messages
13,400
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Knoxville TN
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Service Manager
And I'll add this. I no longer have to quote my labor as I'm currently in a gravy job. But when I did have to, yes, I quoted high. But there were occasions where I missed the mark, my estimation of what I based my quote on even though I bid high. This happened a couple of times. Result? My bad, I charged the customer my quoted number and sucked up the amount I missed it by. Why? Well, I've always dealt honestly, straight up. I've learned in life that Karma is a b-i-itch to those who are shady.
 

Blue-Fox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2022
Messages
159
Location
99611
Occupation
Oilfield Owner/Operator
If I had quoted that job, it would have been 12 hours regardless. If he was going to run over on the billing time, you should have been notified of that. Hell, if he was that far of on his quote........he shouldn't be quoting anything. Learn a lesson from this. Thes types end up going under in a hurry doing business like that.
This is a small town. Def learned that I need to find another welder. !! I paid him almost double his 12hr bid and told him to get going down the road. I know he has kids to feed or else I wouldnt have.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,549
Location
Canada
I think in a lot of places if a business or self-employed individual wants or needs to increase the price, they need to inform you if it's going to be over a certain percentage like 15% or something like that.

Years ago I was told about $500 labour to change a wheel motor in my skid steer. I get the bill and it was over $1300. No phone call no nothing. The work was done by a mechanic who I don't even think was a journeyman yet. I pick up the machine and take it to my property. Drive it 30ft. and it's obvious the drive chain is extremely loose. No problem, I'll just take a couple screws out with an impact driver (screws were tight so they wouldn't vibrate loose) and move the heater out of the way so I can get at the chain adjuster. Nope, the idiot obviously had no idea about an impact driver so ground the screws flat but the heater was still attached. Thankfully it was attached to a removable panel across the entrance to the cab. I took the panel off but it was kind of beatch to move the heater out of the way to get at the chain adjuster. Incompetence at it's best. The same idiot that told me $500 made me wait a few days for a temp. gauge sending unit and it was the wrong one. Mine used a ring terminal and it was a spade terminal. He looked in the wrong parts book and not by the serial number. They had the right sending unit in stock and it was almost half the price. The guy was just a dolt and was somehow the parts manager. A younger guy pulled out the right manual and found the part number. I try to deal with them as little as possible but they are the Kubota dealer and dealer for parts for my skid steer.
 

thepumpguysc

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Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
7,539
Location
Sunny South Carolina
Occupation
Master Inj.Pump rebuilder
And THATS WHY u find out about the service AFTER the sale BEFORE committing to buying a piece of equipment..
I’ve seen that written on the web a million times, when trying to decide between Equipment brands..

Willie: I do the exact same thing.!!
I charge an hr to take off a pump and an hour to put it back on.. I can do it in 20 minutes on a good day..
Then the customer wants to TALK.!! I haven’t done 1 in 2 hrs IN YEARS.!!!
But still quote it like that.. lol
 

1693TA

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Feb 27, 2010
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2,687
Location
Farmington IL
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FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
In Illinois if there is no agreement between parties, the plaintiff is only responsible for the first $100.00 of an upcharge from the initial agreement for a repair. This is the basis of the requirement of a signed work order in various businesses I've been involved with. However, if you as the repairing entity call and gain approval over the phone for the additional work or expense, this is allowed. Judges can be quite fair in automotive type repairs to both parties I've found. Just don't assume it will be alright and go without approval is the best way to do things.

I'm only citing automotive repairs in the above example but that law extends to most any service agency. I seen it applied just after the first of this new year but wasn't involved with it. Kind of got a chuckle from it too as one of those "I told you so" type affairs.
 

Willie B

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Jan 2, 2016
Messages
4,063
Location
Mount Tabor VT
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Electrician
My father realized we almost never do two jobs alike. I don't know how long it'll take until I've done it. Material pricing can waste many hours of my time. Labor estimating is more accurately called guestimating.
I work time & material. If we waste time, I deduct hours, but bill for hours spent productively working the job. A good many repeat customers are OK with that.
There are always shoppers, they happily waste the time of 4 out of 5 electricians shopping for the best price. I believe there will always be someone who doesn't know how to estimate, or doesn't mind cutting corners, or are desperate for work & bid too low. Some providers are simply optimists. Those potential customers shopping for best price are comparing a pig to a chicken. I either throw a price I know I won't lose money, or I decline to bid. I rarely get those jobs anyway. Always somebody wants the job & prices himself at $20.00 an hour. My insurance costs nearly that.
 

Willie B

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
4,063
Location
Mount Tabor VT
Occupation
Electrician
In Illinois if there is no agreement between parties, the plaintiff is only responsible for the first $100.00 of an upcharge from the initial agreement for a repair. This is the basis of the requirement of a signed work order in various businesses I've been involved with. However, if you as the repairing entity call and gain approval over the phone for the additional work or expense, this is allowed. Judges can be quite fair in automotive type repairs to both parties I've found. Just don't assume it will be alright and go without approval is the best way to do things.

I'm only citing automotive repairs in the above example but that law extends to most any service agency. I seen it applied just after the first of this new year but wasn't involved with it. Kind of got a chuckle from it too as one of those "I told you so" type affairs.
I did a job for the grandson of a very famous man in US history. It was a two car garage. I worked for the builder, but billed the owner. The project grew to a three car garage with a boiler room, gymnasium, bathroom on one level. Might as well have a second floor! A mortice & Tennon timber frame formed the large second floor. It became a guest apartment & music room. When it came time to settle up, he did not respond for 30 days when contractor & subs started getting nervous. Plumber showed up at his door to collect with his three sons & other members of the crew. He got paid in full. I filed a lien with the town. Town Clerk sat on my paperwork until he had time to transfer ownership of the property to his brother. My lawyer was able to prove my lien was delivered prior to his transfer of ownership. The lien had to be amended to include the brother. Cost me $800. in legal fees, but I was eventually paid in full. At one point he made the statement: "I own properties in 5 states, I pay my lawyer a handsome amount to assure me I don't need to pay a cent I don't want to.

Did a project for a new owner of a large house my father & I wired in 1974. It began as a kitchen renovation. It grew from that step by step over 2 years to a total renovation of house, pool house, and guest house/4 car garage. The whole renovation totalled $300,000. I billed monthly, & was paid promptly. In the chaos of the last summer the bill got up to $14000 he owed me. Last bill he ignored. Attempts to collect failed. I filed a lien, this time using a different lawyer. Lawyer advised I'd need to file a lawsuit within 6 months or the lien was void. He was confident the two judges who might be selected both took a dim view of deadbeat millionaires who don't pay. No counter claims were made, he didn't complain about workmanship, only refused to pay.

Turned out his lawyer had more pull than expected. She claimed me & my lawyer were well known in my county, the judge wouldn't be fair. Got the case moved to a different county where the judge was sympathetic to her. My lawyer was elderly & he got scared. He told me: "We could lose this case entirely. His lawyer offered a settlement of just over half what he owes. I believe you should take it."
 

Acoals

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2019
Messages
1,350
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
Jack of all trades/Master of none
There is a big difference between a technician (You name the field) and an owner or manager/sales person.

In other words, he can be a great welder, but a poor businessman. I know a lot of guys who are highly skilled at whatever it is they do, but cannot run a business.

Very few of those guys know that about themselves.

For proof, check out some of the armchair quarterbacking that goes on in some of these threads.
 
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