What do ya'll think about battery electric excavators?

[cmohn0402]

It seems like the big OEMS are investing alot in developing new battery electric machines... Just curious to see what ya'll think about it.

Do you think it will be adopted over time?
What are your biggest concerns?
Is it even practical?

I have a Tesla and love it, but my company's revenue doesn't depend on it functioning properly..

Thanks,
Chris

 

[skyking1]

there is a solid niche for small machines to use inside structures. JCB has a 19 that has been successful in the UK, but it was offered to me at 85K and we would not use it enough in that application. IHI has a 0.9 machine that gets narrow enough to walk through a doorway.
With big machines there is far too much energy needed to get the work done, period. End of story.
When we go out on the jobs there is no charging infrastructure in place. It does not make any sense to go that direction.

 

[funwithfuel]

Hybrid seems to be the more realistic approach. Several manufacturers are offering Hybrid in some form or another. I'm hearing realized fuel savings of 70% or better. The maintenance costs offset the savings however.

 

[skyking1]

no doubt. These machines do NOT need an added layer of complexity. The auto shutdown and lean idle features are the best we can do for the kind of work we ask of them.

 

[Welder Dave]

JCB is working on hydrogen engines for larger machines.

 

[funwithfuel]

Toyota is looking towards hydrogen as well. Again, infrastructure is going to be the challenge. Safely handling explosive gas sounds interesting.

 

[Welder Dave]

Years ago I remember a garden tractor or something similar that ran on hydrogen separated from water. The fuel tank contained water. I couldn't find a reference to it.

 

[CM1995]

Welcome to the Forums C402.

Tell us a little more about your involvement in the heavy equipment industry.

Personally I don't think full electric heavy equipment will not be practical in my lifetime. The smaller mini's like Sky is talking about that are used inside sure but a 60K hoe out on a normal suburban site - not happening anytime soon.

The simple fact of charging the batteries on a construction site is a huge mountain to climb. What does the temporary electrical service look like on a job site that needs to charge a 325, D3, 533, 279, 305, all the lulls and lifts overnight in order to be in service the next morning at 6:30 AM?

Now add 5-6 more sites in the close vicinity and how much power does that require in addition to the normal loads of the surrounding structures?

I'm no electrician nor electrical engineer but that's just not practical with a current electrical grid that cannot service its current demand load.

 

[skyking1]

that JCB 19 was really not an inside machine by design, either.
The cage does not tilt or come off easily to get through low doors, etc.
https://www.jcb.com/en-us/products/compact-excavators/19c-1e
85K for a 1.9 ton? Yeesh.

 

[92U 3406]

We'll charge 'em up with big diesel generators

 

[LACHAU]

My post was in Vietnam construction machinery forum. Unfortunately, our forum is written in Vietnamese.

Máy đào mini chạy pin của Hitachi ZX55U-6EB

Hãng Hitachi đã trình làng mẫu máy đào chạy hoàn toàn bằng điện: chạy bằng bộ pin sạc Lithium-Ion hoặc có thể đấu dây trực tiếp vào hệ thống điện lưới 400VAC/03 pha để hoạt động. người sử dụng có thể lựa chọn giữa hoạt động chạy bằng pin, sử dụng pin lithium-ion hoặc hoạt động có dây, cho phép...

maycongtrinh-club.translate.goog

 

[LACHAU]

I believe electric-powered construction machines will not thrive in the future, but Hydrogen-powered construction machines will dominate.
Currently, there is a company that has developed a very good idea to improve so that the internal combustion engine can use both types of fuel: traditional Diesel fuel and Hydrogen fuel.

 

[LACHAU]

and here is the idea of "blending" adding 90% Hydrogen into Diesel fuel

New system retrofits diesel engines to run on 90 per cent hydrogen

newsroom.unsw.edu.au

 

[LACHAU]

A famous company in the field of manufacturing internal combustion engines (perhaps everyone knows it is Cummins) has also entered the race to produce internal combustion engines using Hydrogen fuel.

 

[cmohn0402]

there is a solid niche for small machines to use inside structures. JCB has a 19 that has been successful in the UK, but it was offered to me at 85K and we would not use it enough in that application. IHI has a 0.9 machine that gets narrow enough to walk through a doorway.
With big machines there is far too much energy needed to get the work done, period. End of story.
When we go out on the jobs there is no charging infrastructure in place. It does not make any sense to go that direction.

This is good feedback thank you.

 

[cmohn0402]

Thank you! My family has been in the heavy construction industry for a few generations. I’m an engineer in the mil/aero industry but I’m about to make career change and I recently received an offer from a startup to lead their battery system development effort for heavy construction equipment.

I certainly have my reservations about wide spread adoption of battery electric equipment. I thought I would reach out to you fine people for some feedback because I think Silicon Valley lives in a bubble.

My overall opinion is that whatever new technology is introduced to the heavy equipment industry needs to accomplish three things (at a minimum).

1) It has to be “better than” what already exists in just about every single way (more power, capacity, capabilities, less maintenance, no additional training, etc.)

2) It must be extremely reliable and robust. Equipment down time = lost revenue and you’re messing with people’s livelihood.

3) It must increase productivity. (Like you said, can’t be worrying about the charging infrastructure or how to charge etc. )

It’s technically feasible to completely replace the diesel engine with a battery system that operates for an 8 hour shift. And you can fast change in about an hour.

But like you said, it’s the logistics of charging that is the biggest question imo, can’t just drive an excavator down the street to your local charger.

 

[CM1995]

But like you said, it’s the logistics of charging that is the biggest question imo, can’t just drive an excavator down the street to your local charger.

It's not logistics - it's the electrical infrastructure required to be in place in order to build a temporary power service big enough to charge the iron on site.

OK great my 325 EX can now run an 8 hr shift on one charge. How long does it take to charge an electric motor to power a 55,000 excavator in addition to our 22,000 dozer, 10,000 lb skid steer and 12,000 lb mini-ex for starters in addition to all the other lifts, lulls and compact equipment on a typical small commercial site in the middle of the suburbs?

Who is going to pay for the power? The GC or the subs? How does that affect general conditions?

That is the kind of real time solutions that need to be found in order for this pipe dream of all electric equipment comes to fruition.

Just my $.035 adjusted for massive inflation.

 

[skyking1]

Yes, the scale of the power used by an excavator as described above is much more than an over the road semi truck. Sure they have the same amount of power for starting out but once a big truck is headed down the road on flat ground. It doesn't take very much horsepower at all.
The excavator on the other hand is pulling hard all the time if it's digging. There's just no way to compare it. And there is no scale to describe the difference in how much current you're going to need to charge that battery pack.
Put pencil to paper and figure out how many kilowatt hours of battery pack you're going to have to have to give us 150 horsepower for 8 hours or 1200 horsepower hours.
Then you can say you've started to look at the problem.
The average EV uses a fraction of the horsepower going down the road.

 

[JD955SC]

Electrification of some mini-ex’s and such? Absolutely for indoor and tight residential areas.

Bigger stuff? Not feasible. What is being built is really being built for research dollars and a very niche market driven by politics.

The most enthusiastic champions of electrification everything have no clue about the real world especially heavy equipment.

Also even in a magic world where you could go battery everything you’d still be faced with some stiff charging issues, both physics limited and limited by the grid itself.

 

[92U 3406]

It's not logistics - it's the electrical infrastructure required to be in place in order to build a temporary power service big enough to charge the iron on site.

OK great my 325 EX can now run an 8 hr shift on one charge. How long does it take to charge an electric motor to power a 55,000 excavator in addition to our 22,000 dozer, 10,000 lb skid steer and 12,000 lb mini-ex for starters in addition to all the other lifts, lulls and compact equipment on a typical small commercial site in the middle of the suburbs?

Who is going to pay for the power? The GC or the subs? How does that affect general conditions?

That is the kind of real time solutions that need to be found in order for this pipe dream of all electric equipment comes to fruition.

Just my $.035 adjusted for massive inflation.

Now head to the already remote areas of Canada, then head an additional 70 kilometers off the pavement and up into the mountains. Where's the plug in for the loader, delimber, skidder and buncher?