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Welding Question

JNB

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Flyin' low and rollin' slow...
I need to make a small weld on my Case TR320. A small bracket that holds the hood strut broke off. Should I be worried at all about welding doing any damage to the computer junk? It does have a battery shutoff if that makes any difference.
 

lantraxco

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Anything with compouters, I usually pull the ground cable off the battery even if it has a disconnect, belt and suspenders. Not sure what CASE says.
 

2grit

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Like the last poster said, pull the ground cable. You also want to ground the welder as close to where you are welding as possible. In short, do not let the welding current pass through any bearing, hinge, nothing. Good luck
 

Todd v.

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I've always wondered if pulling the ground off the battery is a good thing to do or not. My train of thought is this. All kinds of stuff has it's own chassis ground and the only thing you are really isolating by unhooking the battery is the battery itself. As long as you have a good ground for your welder and even if you don't as long as you don't have it hooked to something you shouldn't there is no reason power would go anywhere that it shouldn't. I've welded and used a plasma cutter on a lot of stuff, including late model cars, and have never unhooked a battery and have never had any issues.

Keep your ground on the piece you are welding and there is no reason for current to go anywhere else. If it's noise you are worried about, the battery will help quiet it down as it acts as a capacitor. Now if you are welding say on a door and the ground is on the other side of a hinge, then you can have an issue because the power may find an easier path through some wiring that runs through some sensitive stuff rather than through the greased or rusty hinge.
 
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Scrub Puller

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Yair . . . .

and have never unhooked a battery and have never had any issues.

Perhaps your luck will change? Why chance it?

Ever since electric welders have been used on machinery it has been convention to unhook the battery.

In the days of generators on equipment voltage regulators were the vulnerable component and could be fried with random inexplicable feedbacks.


Keep your ground on the piece you are welding and there is no reason for current to go anywhere else.

Complete bull$hite mate. There may be no "reason" for it to go anywhere else but it can.

Even with the earth clamped onto a track-plate and welding the track plate to the link I have seen arcs at random points along the track chain . . . seems impossible but it happens . . . as do random arcs and flashes in the broken canopy wires of tractor as welding is being done on the blade.

And trust me you get some really strange things going on if some one forgets to move the earth when welding on hundred foot steel boat . . . or particularly if the earth gets knocked off and you continue to work with the clamp hanging in the water adjacent to the hull. . . what is a side scan sonar worth?

Cheers.
 
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td25c

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Generally disconnect battery cables & like mentioned ground the welder close to the repair .

On one service call on a 20 foot bush hog customer had a brand new JD tractor hooked to it . To save time & aggravation I had him just unhitch from it while I made the welding repair on the mower .

Just don't want to hear later about some computer F - up on his new tractor and the dealer blaming the welding .;)
 

movindirt

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The manual for our Cat 247 says to unhook the ground whenever any welding needs done. I usually do that with pretty much any machine
 

lantraxco

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Even with the disconnect turned off, there are sometimes circuits still live, real time clocks, radio setting power, or something someone has wired in. If a machine doesn't have a disconnect, basically every electrical component is connected to ground either on the ground side, or on the hot side through the battery back to ground. High current from welding always flows through the path of least resistance and that can be one or many paths, and the starting and stopping of the arc can induce high voltage spikes as well. Hell the new machines with ECM's on the engine, the instructions plainly state only ONE point of contact for frame ground of the battery or batteries, because even ground loops while running can mess up the spendy bits.
 

Karl Robbers

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Definitely disconnect the battery ground and also reference the owners/workshop manual, particularly with modern gear.
As an example, off the top of my head, Volvo specify that the battery is disconnected, three or four fuses pulled and the harness disconnected from the computers before welding on their rubber tyre loaders.
You may well get away with less, but do you really want to explain blowing up to four computers? A welding repair was carried on one at our batch plant without taking the required precautions and the final tally was three computers that needed replacement and lots of zeros in the final bill.
Late model Hino trucks are also very touchy and there is a strict procedure to follow. Non negotiable.
 
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Nige

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I'd also pull the ground cable, also because the terminal gives you a place to place an isolation lock just in case you shoot off for lunch/coffee/bathroom or whatever and someone who isn't aware of what you're doing comes and tries to start the machine. I know it shouldn't happen but it probably will at some point.

Last year I had the dubious pleasure of pulling a wheel loader articulation hitch apart at relatively low hours to change bearings due to excessive wear and was pretty pi$$ed when we got the lower bearings out and I could see marks showing where welding return current had been passing through them at some point. So the reason for the failure was pretty obvious and each one of the welders got his head rammed down the hole to see the scars with a "see that - don't EVER do it again dumbass" .........
 

Todd v.

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Yair . . . .



Perhaps your luck will change? Why chance it?

Ever since electric welders have been used on machinery it has been convention to unhook the battery.

In the days of generators on equipment voltage regulators were the vulnerable component and could be fried with random inexplicable feedbacks.




Complete bull$hite mate. There may be no "reason" for it to go anywhere else but it can.

Even with the earth clamped onto a track-plate and welding the track plate to the link I have seen arcs at random points along the track chain . . . seems impossible but it happens . . . as do random arcs and flashes in the broken canopy wires of tractor as welding is being done on the blade.

And trust me you get some really strange things going on if some one forgets to move the earth when welding on hundred foot steel boat . . . or particularly if the earth gets knocked off and you continue to work with the clamp hanging in the water adjacent to the hull. . . what is a side scan sonar worth?

Cheers.

So what does unhooking the ground from the battery protect other than the battery? Everything on the machine has it's own ground somewhere other than than the battery. They ground either to the chassis or the engine block. For unhooking the battery to help, the current/noise that damages something would have to pass through the battery. I'm not trying to argue or call BS, just doesn't make sense to me.

If you really are concerned about modules, components and ECMs they should be disconnected entirely. That's the only way to properly isolate them.

But if you have a poor ground like on something with a little rust, your ground clamp is dirty or blackened from arcing or you are grounded to a different peice of metal I can definitely see it trying to get to earth through another path or multiple paths if the one with the least resistance doesn't have enough current capacity.

The sonar example is an improper ground example but even then I don't think unhooking the battery would save it. You have the current trying to run out the transducer to the floating ground clamp and finding a path through whatever it can along the way. I don't see why it would try to pass through the battery.

I like to try to understand how things work, especially electricity, I do a lot of diagnostics and I have learned that blindly following directions isn't always the most efficient path and can sometimes get you screwed. They aren't always right. I'm not saying uhooking a battery is going to hurt anything, and in some bad ground cases it may help, but on the stuff I work on it can directly cost you money and or an unhappy customer. We once put a battery in Volkswagen that we had to have towed to the dealer because the transmission no longer worked, it needed to be reprogrammed. lesson learned, use a memory saver. But what's the difference in using a memory saver battery and leaving the cars battery hooked up when welding? None really if you are trying to protect components. Now we have clocks to reset, radio and navigation security codes to deal with and a host of driver settings that may or may not need resetting, not to mention ecm relearning. Unhooking a battery isn't as simple as it used to be, it can take an hour of extra work and sometimes calls to the dealer to get security codes...who wants to deal with all that if it not necissary?
 

Karl Robbers

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I'd also pull the ground cable, also because the terminal gives you a place to place an isolation lock just in case you shoot off for lunch/coffee/bathroom or whatever and someone who isn't aware of what you're doing comes and tries to start the machine. I know it shouldn't happen but it probably will at some point.

Last year I had the dubious pleasure of pulling a wheel loader articulation hitch apart at relatively low hours to change bearings due to excessive wear and was pretty pi$$ed when we got the lower bearings out and I could see marks showing where welding return current had been passing through them at some point. So the reason for the failure was pretty obvious and each one of the welders got his head rammed down the hole to see the scars with a "see that - don't EVER do it again dumbass" .........
Speaking as a Boilermaker Welder, there is no excuse for arcing through bearings. Earthing through a bearing is the signature of laziness and incompetence.
 

rsherril

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How about a torch weld? Replaced a gate post brace this week after a flood took it down and was quite satisfied with the results. I think it is somewhat of a lost art these days.
 

Delmer

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So what does unhooking the ground from the battery protect other than the battery?

The battery doesn't care, that protects the alternator mainly, or the generator voltage regulator in the old days. Maybe it's outdated advice, but that's been learned from countless toasted alternators because "how can the current from welding on a bucket affect the alternator 20' away?".

I don't know what it does for computers, I don't think I'd be welding on something as touchy as that VW under any circumstances. Having to reprogram a computer because of changing the battery is a case of engineering malpractice IMHO.

My understanding is that torch welding has zero affect on electronics. What about the difference between AC and DC? I'd guess that AC is responsible for frying more alternators that "aren't in the path of the current". Is DC less likely to damage electronic components that are away from the welding?
 

Scrub Puller

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Yair . . .

Todd v.

Unhooking a battery isn't as simple as it used to be, it can take an hour of extra work and sometimes calls to the dealer to get security codes...who wants to deal with all that if it not necissary?

I hear you mate and understand the problem but I believe you would be taking a huge risk . . . any computer or electrical issues down the track could be problematical and a dealer would want to know the exact procedure followed.

Cheers.
 

ih100

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Peterborough UK
The advice coming out of some manufacturers is disconnect the battery, and the ECM connections. If you don't and you haven't fried an ECM, you've been lucky. When you can take out an ECM just by jump-starting, it shows how sensitive the things can be.
 

bdog1234

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Mar 29, 2013
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I have welded on countless machines, trucks, tractors, etc and have never unhooked a battery and have never had an issue. This includes several 2014 and 2015 things with tons of electronics.

We converted a Deere 332 tracked skid teer to a drilling rig and removed the arms and welded on it for about two weeks straight and no issues.

Every muffler shop in America welds on cars all day long. I have never seen them disconnect a battery.
 
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lantraxco

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Two kinds: Them that has and them that will. Do what suits you, I can't afford new computers so I go by the manufacturer's word.

Cheers,
Lanway
 
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