Underwhelmed by dealer's repair work on Vermeer FT100

[RobX]

tl;dr: What do you do when your service provider disappoints; make them fix it, or give up and go somewhere else?
...
I bought a 2015 Vermeer FT100 with 620 hours in a private sale last May. The FT100 is a rebranded Terex PT110 Forestry (my machine) / ASV RT120 Forestry (current machines) with Vermeer-engineered rotary mulching head. I got it for a good price—maybe too good—and had it delivered to directly my local dealer, with whom I had no previous relationship. I asked them to give it thorough inspection and fix anything that needed to be fixed. They found $2000 worth of this and that, but no serious issues.

After some delays it was delivered to my property, ~47 acres that over 50 years went from farm to forest to logging site to impenetrable tangle of logging slash and buckthorn. I ran the machine for about 45 minutes, keeping one eye on the on-board computer. The reported temps all stayed low, but when backing up, I noticed a bit of steam out the side window. I turned around to see the radiator erupting like Old Faithful. These machines have poor side and rear visibility, so I'm not sure how long it was doing that; it could have been several minutes. I boiled away over a gallon of coolant :-(. Back to the dealer to figure out why it was overheating and fix the resulting damage.

It was at the dealer for three months (!!!) working on the problem, waiting on parts, tech on vacation, etc. They did eventually find the root cause: a broken spring in the oil cooler bypass release valve, which allowed hydro oil to bypass the oil cooler and return to the sump directly. (Come on ASV, shouldn't activation of the bypass valve throw a warning?) It is possible this spring had been broken for some time, as there were two hydro oil overtemp fault codes in the computer and the dealer said the machine had other service visits in its history. The dealer fixed the value, replaced thermostats, and a few other parts.

I finally got the machine back at the end of August along with a hefty invoice. Cut some paths, shredded a few acres of invasives. Fun stuff! I know the ASV undercarriage is one people love to hate, but the combination of low ground pressure and 15" clearance is a great fit for my working conditions, which is poorly-drained glacial till with stumps and no rocks. The Vermeer mulching head is awesome. I put about 45 hours on the machine last fall and learned (maybe from this forum) to sharpen the teeth before every use, which makes big difference in cutting efficiency. I kept an eye on the hydro oil level; it went up and down but it was hard to see if there were small losses because overnight temperature variations make a big different in oil level also. However, after a mulching session in January it started leaking very badly, with oil visibly dripping from the belly pan. Back the dealer.

This time they reported that a bunch of hydro hoses need to be replaced along with all 22 gallons of Vermeer brand hydro oil at a cost of approximately one zillion dollars per gallon. I assume the hoses were a casualty of the earlier excessive hydro oil temp, or maybe just age; what can you do. After another month in the shop waiting for parts and another big invoice I got the machine back last Friday. The machine was out of service exactly during our one month of actual winter, but the ground was still mostly frozen on the day it came back so I ran it until dusk that evening. Checked for leaks after shutdown, nothing obvious, but it was getting dark. I left the machine for a week due to my real job and warm weather. Yesterday morning I went out at dawn to take advantage of a cold night. A check under the machine belly pan revealed it's still leaking oil.

Today I opened up the cab and dropped the belly pan to see what is going on. The pumps and hoses look ok, but I found the dealer had used some kind of RTV goop to seal around the hydro reservoir as well as in various other inappropriate (although probably harmless) places, like hose-clamped hoses. Looking at the parts diagram, I see the access cover calls for an O-ring rather than a gasket. As an engineer, I take a pretty dim view of using goop instead of a gasket, but using goop instead of an O-ring is just appalling. There is absolutely no way that will work. (I know they didn't replace the O-ring, because they didn't charge for it!)

So the question is, what do I do now? My repair bills to date are over 20% of the purchase price. In one of those "for the want of a nail, the battle was lost" situations, the use of goop instead of a couple of $20 O-rings means the hydro oil will likely need to be dumped again. (I did at least determine today that Vermeer Ashless is probably Mobil DTE 10 Excel 46; that'll save a few bucks.) It's not practical for me to work on this machine myself; I don't have the experience or tools, and my "shop" is gravel driveway without water or power. The dealer is local and friendly enough, and it is clear the mechanic spent a lot of unpleasant hours digging into this machine, but by their own admission they had not worked on one of these machines before and this O-ring business suggests a lack of expertise with hydraulic systems.

So, do I call them and read them the Riot Act, or do I give up and look for a different shop? If the latter, how do I find a shop that has some experience with ASV machines? I'm in the Cleveland area; the nearest ASV dealer is in Columbus and they only recently starting carrying the line. Other options include a couple of agriculture-focused dealers in the next town over, and various construction equipment dealers (including a giant Ohio CAT franchise) ~50 miles away. I realize there's some chance this machine is just a lemon or was damaged beyond repair by the overheating but the engine, undercarriage, cylinders etc are all in fine shape, and I'd like to think it can be fixed. What do you recommend?

Thanks,

Rob

belly pan where the leak is:

hydro reservoir access panel with goop and oil:

Oil return panel. Amazingly, this doesn't seem to be leaking.

Parts diagram. 43, 44 are O-rings.

 

[crane operator]

The 43 and 44 are not actually "o-rings" in the typical sense, but a rope seal. Maybe not even available as parts, and knowing terex, that's a pretty good bet. You can make them if you have the right diameter rope and a spot of super glue.

Likely the tech just reused the old seal and applied some rtv to try to keep anything from getting to the oring. You won't know unless you pull it apart, but I bet there is still a seal in there. He may have made a new rope seal.

As far as the repair prices being 20% of the purchase price. You sent it to the dealer- and said "fix what's wrong". They can only fix what's wrong right then. Its a guessing game of what is possibly going to be wrong in the future.

If you can't fix anything yourself, you should almost buy new with warranty, or rent. Otherwise a used machine is going to eat your lunch.

If you think you've spent $$ now on some hoses, wait until you need to replace that undercarriage or do some drive pumps. You're really going to be unhappy then.

 

[Coaldust]

At Dealer for three months last May.- That was the height of the pandemic. Parts were probably very difficult to get. Shipping was a challenge. Staffing was a challenge. Three months doesn’t surprise me.

The broken oil cooler bypass valve could have been very difficult to diagnose. I’m actually impressed they figured that out.

Used machines are a gamble. Yeah, they will each your lunch, just like crane operator said. Or, sometimes you get lucky.

Those forestry mulchers in operation look and sound like they are trying to vibrate themselves to pieces. I have no idea what the cost per hour is to operate, but you’ll find out soon enough.

Good luck. Sorry to hear about the expensive surprises.

 

[Tones]

Sorry to have e to tell you this but the PT110 was the worst POS ASV have produced. The 100 would suck the door handels of em. I hired one of ASV here in Australia, it had 3 fires in it in one day even though I had kept it clean. The blokes a ASV told me I should have let it burn.

 

[Midnightmoon]

Given the downside of the asv and the brutal effect on any machine running a mulching head you might want to think about renting a machine to run the mulcher. Those heads over heat hydraulic oil and clog everything from the fine chips they produce. They clog radiators and airfilters in no time. They should be checked and cleaned every 4 hours. Not to mention when running these mulching heads its recommended to change the hydraulic oil more regularly.

 

[treemuncher]

These are my personal opinions so take them for what they are worth. These opinions don't answer your original questions regarding a dealer but they may lead to a solution. They are not meant to bum you out or provide negativity towards yourself so please don't think that I am kicking you while you are down. That said:

If you can't fix it yourself, you can't afford a mulching machine. Hire the work out and your life will be less stressful and you will save a lot of money. Today's new machines are much better than a decade ago but every time you start the machine, it is self destructing. Remember Newton's third law of physics: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction". That machine takes in as much punishment as it dishes out. I've watched a lot of people jump in this mulching pool over the past 25 years and few have not drowned after the first year or two. I am a born mechanic with a stubborn streak and a love for listening to trees scream, otherwise I would have been out of this business decades ago.

An ASV is like owning a boat - the best days are the purchase and sell dates. I do NOT miss my "pitch & puke" machine that was forever having issues, even though I purchased it new. It was neat, it was fun but it was a maintenance nightmare that cost more to keep running than a true, purpose built forestry machine. Think of a meat cleaver compared to a full size axe for cutting and splitting. Your not going to get much work done and your knuckles will suffer when trying to use a cleaver. It costs more to rebuild an ASV undercarriage than a D6 dozer and nothing on it is built heavy enough for true forestry use. Parts are crammed into a space too small to work within. My swear vocabulary always swelled when working on that thing and my blood volume always dropped. I learned to hate that machine with a passion. Avoid all soil types besides sand, clay or loam and it might last a while. Just because it will spin a mulcher does not mean it was built to do so and any mulcher will put demands on the best built machines that will tear them to pieces.

While the newer ASVs may be much improved over the model that I owned 15 years ago, I still have no desire to going back to that type of track system. Impossible to clean out easily, way too many problems and just too delicate for the soil types & terrains that I encounter. They are a stout machine and fast for tracks but I don't run a skid steer service. They do have their place where they are exceptionally efficient machines but not in my work environment.

These are just my honest opinions on what I did own for about 2k hours running rotary mower, tree shear, mulcher drum, bucket, demo rake and more.

 

[RobX]

Hi, folks. Thank you for your sound advice. It does inform how I will work with the dealer; my attitude will be less "you messed up" and more of a "here's the situation, let's see how we can address it". Sometimes it does help to get the complaining out of the way!

I'll plead guilty to having erred in buying a used machine. If I'd bought a new machine and sold it at the end of the two-year warranty, I probably would have come out ahead financially and certainly would have gotten more work done. Lesson learned.

Same goes for renting a machine or contracting out. These are fine options. All I can say in my defense is that I tried.

Not many vendors rent out mulching setups, presumably because running a forestry head is hard on the machine. Ohio CAT quoted me price of (from memory, might be inaccurate) $10k/week for a 299 XHP with a Diamond head. However, they have very few of these available statewide. If you want to rent one, they put you on a waiting list; when a machine comes in, they call you to see if you want it starting tomorrow. You can then keep it for as long as you keep paying for it. The price was fair, but the availability wasn't compatible with my work schedule. A second out-of-state vendor quoted an even higher weekly rate for an ASV RT75HD + Loftness head that was really too big for that machine. The two other vendors I called didn't rent mulching setups at all.

As for contracting out: this is even better advice, but contractors are hard to find in my area. There is some minor woodlot logging here, but no forestry industry. Commercial developers just pave over corn fields for their Wal-Marts. I did find someone in my area with a machine and hired him two years ago. We were both satisfied with the arrangement, but when I tried to hire him the following year he had decided to focus on excavation and no longer had a mulcher. I then went to a large land management company and contracted with them to bring in a CMI dedicated mulcher at a rate of $2400 a day—again, a very fair price. But when my week came up, their machine was broken. By the time it was fixed, the weather had warmed and it was too wet to work. That's when I gave up and bought the FT100, thinking that at least then I could work when conditions permitted it.

The one place I'm not budging from my position is that one should replace gaskets and O-ring on any fitting that gets opened up prior to adding $1000 worth of hydraulic oil. It's just cheap insurance. I went ahead and ordered the O-rings from trackloaderparts.com this morning just to make sure I have them in hand. Whether I install them myself or just hand them over the dealer I haven't decided, but I'll probably have the dealer do it. I fix my own appliances, but I don't begrudge other people owning dishwashers.

 

[crane operator]

Looking at your parts diagram. The rope seals are inside of the bolts/ threaded holes. The bolts are probably drilled totally through the hyd tank, and tapped. The rope seal is holding the fluid to plate connection, but likely the factory put something on the bolts to seal them into the tank. Your mechanic realizes that the rope seal is holding that fluid, but applied a layer to the rest of it to try to stop what's coming through the bolt threads.

The hyd tank looks like it may be plastic? If its been super hot, you may have a hard time trying to get those covers to seal well. The overheating oil will warp the plastic. I really don't think the mechanic was out to shaft you, I think he was trying to make the best of a poor situation.

 

[mowingman]

I hope you are finally able to get the repair shop to fix everything. Hold their feet to the fire, as they say. I have cleared land for the last 15 years. I learned really fast, never own your forestry mulcher. I started out renting, and now I know why there are so few places to rent these machines. If, in the future, you decide you need a rental, I would suggest trying Bobcat, or Kubota dealers. While all their rigs have problems, at least I can rent them here and breakdowns are their problem. Good luck.
Jeff

 

[RobX]

I sent a polite email to the dealer along with the photos. They said there was indeed a "slight leak" from that plate at the shop, and they put the RTV on to address it.

Since the RTV didn't work (because there is no way it could have ) they will send a truck to pick up the machine and fix it, free of charge. Can't ask for better than that.

 

[Delmer]

Plan B: goats, machete and Crossbow herbicide.

 

[lantraxco]

Plan C, fire breaks and a flamethrower.