Trying to decide between a skip loader or CTL

[Grit]

I hope this is in the right place. I didn't know where to post this because it has to do with two different type machines. If not in the right place I do apologize mods.

I have been looking for equipment to help me clear land. I have a small 16 acre plot in East Texas. Mainly sandy loam on the flats with a slight grade of about 12-16 degrees. There's a creek that runs through the middle of the property. The ground is semi-firm to soft depending on area.

I will be removing saplings and trees no larger than 4-5 inches in diameter. There's lots of downed trees (mostly pines) that I need to clean up. Some of them very large and will have to be sectioned up with a chainsaw and taken away. Some brushy areas with mainly grasses need to be uprooted and cleaned up. Lots of small limbs and debris. I have many (huge) piles of cut logs and brush that will need to be moved to my burn pit as well. I have a lot of widow makers on my property that need to come down and have yet to figure out how to fell the trees. They are much bigger than are in my plans and may leave them for a professional company. But, I have to work around them and try and avoid backing in to one while clearing. Many have already broken off and the base and are leaning against other trees.

Anyway, with a little background on what I'm up against, I have researched (extensively) the equipment to get the job done. We are on a limited budget and can only spend so much on a machine. I have narrowed my choices down to a couple of machines.

I had looked into ag tractors and found that I could get more bang for the buck purchasing a used skip loader. Much more capable machine and I could used the box blade for maintaining and grading my driveway. I was thinking of continuing my drive and completing a circle drive one day and the skip would be a good choice for that as well. Whoever graded this place when they built it didn't know what they were doing so it needs to be graded properly for proper drainage. Of course I will have to learn how to do this myself! The skip will have a 4 in 1 bucket. This may or may not get me what I need and may have to purchase a root grapple in the end.

My second choice is a Compact Track Loader (CTL). Ideally, it would be a safer machine for the job I need to do. But, the maintenance has me doubting this would be a good choice. I am not a company and these machines are for personal use. There's no way I can put money back in to the machine or write it off. So any machine will be a drain on my wallet. The less drain the better. On top of initial cost of machine, I will have to purchase a root grapple for it; Unless I'm lucky enough to get one that has one already on it. Highly unlikely.

My questions are: Assuming that both machines will equally get the job done, which machine do you think will require the least amount of maintenance? Is one or the other easier to work on? I assume the skip would be easier to work on? As far as parts, are parts more expensive on the track loader vs the skip loader (not including the under carriage on the CTL)?

I realize I could get the job done faster with a CTL. Less time on the job will mean less maintenance and less fuel spent. But the skip gets better GPH in fuel that the track loader?, but would work slower. I assume parts cost would be the deciding factor in machine selection?

I plain on buying used and NOT new. Anywhere between 20-30K. I am not interested in any other type machine and have already researched all other types. I feel these two would work best in my case.

Sorry for the long post, but I really need some advice here. I know a lot of you are business owners and have had first had experience with costs on these machines. I need to keep costs as low as possible, but still be able to have a productive machine.

Thanks for any and all information!

 

[Delmer]

which machine do you think will require the least amount of maintenance? Is one or the other easier to work on? I assume the skip would be easier to work on?

I agree that the skip loader will be easier to work on and less maintenance. For a lot of work the track loader is more efficient, but the manuverability, compactness and versatility won't help as much on your bigger playing field. The biggest disadvantage I can see with the skip loader is that they don't use skid steer quick attach. On the other hand, for what you're doing the three point may be just as useful, and you get more for your money with used three point attachments (farm vs construction). I saw a MF sell for just over $3k this last spring that would do everything you want with the same maintenance as a similar age farm tractor, no 4in1, 4wd or cab, but it did have OROPS, three point, pto and good tires.

With a ROPS and wearing your seatbelt, I don't see how the trackloader would be that much safer? are you thinking rollover or branches hitting you?

 

[Grit]

I agree that the skip loader will be easier to work on and less maintenance. For a lot of work the track loader is more efficient, but the manuverability, compactness and versatility won't help as much on your bigger playing field. The biggest disadvantage I can see with the skip loader is that they don't use skid steer quick attach. On the other hand, for what you're doing the three point may be just as useful, and you get more for your money with used three point attachments (farm vs construction). I saw a MF sell for just over $3k this last spring that would do everything you want with the same maintenance as a similar age farm tractor, no 4in1, 4wd or cab, but it did have OROPS, three point, pto and good tires.

With a ROPS and wearing your seatbelt, I don't see how the trackloader would be that much safer? are you thinking rollover or branches hitting you?

Thanks for your reply, Delmer. That is one of the things that are discouraging when it comes to the skip. I wished they had quick attach. If I had to purchase a grapple, I'm not sure how it would fit on there, if it even does? There is a company that makes quick attachments for skips, but I don't know how reliable, safe or fitted they are. I forget the name.

MF? I'm not good with some abbreviations. Or it could be it's still too early in the morning, lol.

Not so much rolling over than branches coming down on me. That's why I mentioned backing in to a widow maker. You can just be standing outside and hear the crack of a huge limb right before it falls to the ground. Some are very large. We have pines over 80-90 ft tall. When the uppermost limbs come down, you best not be underneath it.

 

[390eric]

Mf is Massey Fergeuson an AG tractor brand. I like the ctl because of the versitility. Alot more attachments for it. You could get a dozer blade, grapple, 4in 1 on it. All kinds of stuff. as far as safety, if a branch is coming down from that far, id be willing tobet there is damage to either machine.

Another thing to think of is if you do need to sell it, a ctl is probably easier to unload then a skiploader. Plus you can always just sell the attachments after you are down with them.

 

[Delmer]

Massey Ferguson, in this case a 50H.

I wouldn't hesitate to work with the loader canopies that I've seen, not that I'd like to have a big branch crash down on top of me, but I don't think they'd cause injury unless they managed to come in the side.

For the most part a pin on anything has to be made or modified for the specific pin dimensions. Not sure what kind of quick attach systems are available.

 

[Grit]

Thanks for the definition. I compared ag tractors to the skips and it just seemed the skip had so much more to offer in terms of power and weight. I need both to get things done around here. Plus I'm looking at older machines and or more hrs when looking at ag tractors. Maybe even less lifting capacity. I think some of the ag tractors with more HP than the skips have less lifting capacity. I might be wrong about that, though.

If I could get fairly close to the performance of the skip, without buying a 20 year old machine or one with a lot of hrs and at a similar price to the skip, I would more than consider an ag tractor. But from what I have seen, it's just not out there.

 

[Grit]

My wife said why not get a farm tractor. I said I would if I were farming. I ain't farming, I'm loggin'!

I do realize implements for the skip are way higher than a regular tractor with PTO. I assume the Hydro 3 point makes the skip impl more expensive? Either way, I wouldn't need the implements anyway. That box blade would do for me as much as I need to do. I still have the issue with 4 in 1 bucket. I'm not sure it will get things done efficiently enough. If not, I still have to figure out how to get a grapple on the skip.

I still think the CTL would be the ultimate, but I don't think I can justify the cost of upkeep/maintenance on it (unless someone could convince me otherwise). I'm in no hurry to get things done. I just need to get it done.

Thanks again for all your help!

Garrett

 

[Delmer]

MF used to make industrial/construction equipment like the 50 loaders. That was just an example of how cheap obsolete industrial equipment can go. I agree, there's no way you'd buy an equivalent farm tractor for the same money and if you did, it would have a much weaker front axle and flimsy loader, plus no shuttle shift/torque converter. You can find skip loaders with three point and PTO. PTO would be needed for a brush hog etc. Three point would be a necessity for what you're planning. You should be able to use any appropriately sized three point implement you want with an industrial tractor, they're just not designed for pulling like a farm tractor. You wouldn't want to use a torque converter to plow all day, but you can do an acre here and there.

 

[390eric]

I am curious as to why you keep talking about maintence costs on a ctl. The big item is the tracks. You just have be smart about how you run it, and keep the tracks in good shape. Are you talking like a tracked skid loader or a small tracked loader/high lift? Anything you buy is going to need maintence, grease, oil, filters. The big thing would be to blow one the main hydraulic lines on a ctl, always a pain.

I can see tires on skip loader getting costly trying to "log" with it. One screw up and you down and need to have it fixed. Might get away with more with a ctl. I guess to me, a ctl just makes most sense, but thats my opionon

 

[dirtmonkey]

If you are in the sand , you'll be much happier with a CTL.

 

[Grit]

That's a good question, eric. I might not have been clear enough. Yes, I am talking about a tracked skid loader. For one I can't afford a new one. For the price I'm looking to pay, I will almost surely need to put some money into it after I get it. Those tracks and their sprockets, bogies, the tracks themselves and whatever else is part of the carriage can really add up fast. Not only are we talking one side, but two sides. True, there may not be the wear on one side like there is another, but the fact remains you have two sides to deal with.

That, along with the higher initial cost of the machine vs a wheeled skid, (or if you want to compare the skip to the CTL as well), they both are far less in initial cost. If there's any parts that need replacing on the track loader, I would be out that before I even get it rolling.

If I'm not mistaken, I think the skips get better GPH fuel than track loaders do. I remember asking the question here not long ago and a gentleman provided a link to the JD 210LE and its fuel usage. I think I remember it being 1.1-1.9GPH. Whereas track loaders were running around 2.5GPH or more. Maybe because they run wide open. So I need to factor that in as well.

Back to the maintenance. Not only would the tracks be an extra cost, but I have to factor in other components that might need replacing. If I had a wheeled skid, I buy tires and I'm done. My only worries after that is usual maintenance and the occasional part that may break and need replacing. With track I have all those extra parts where any one part underneath there could need replacing at any time. You could apply the same thing with the skip vs track loader.

I'm not pretending I know everything cause I don't. That's why I'm asking you guys questions. I actually don't know hardly anything. I only know what I have read and half of that I have already forgotten, lol. So a lot of things I say may not jive because I just don't really remember.

I would LOVE for someone to convince me that a CTL would cost me the least amount of money to run. Maybe even work out some figures for me and lay them out. If I saw something in writing, I could better understand. I know these are two totally different machines and it can be hard to compare the two side by side because each one does something different or maybe a little better (or worse) than the other.

Hopefully that explains things a little better. I've either made it better or I've made it worse!

Garrett

 

[Grit]

If you are in the sand , you'll be much happier with a CTL.

You are correct. That is one big plus with the CTL. As a matter of fact, that could turn out to be one of the more important things to consider.

Thanks!

Garrett

 

[ValleyFirewood]

Skid steer more versatile IMO.

Track vs tires... I prefer tires. Cheaper to maintain and to buy. Also better traction. Not as good on mud or lawns though. Not sure on sand.
20k can buy a decent skid steer.

 

[390eric]

Not trying to be rude but a two minute search on craigslist found these in my area,both under 20,000. All with decent hours, decent shape looks like, and leaves enough for fixing it up in your budget and maybe attachments

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/hvo/4243842105.html

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/hvo/4243842105.html

There were two ads for grapples with free shipping in the USA for around $2000

I personally haven't seen too many undercarriage parts wear out on a ctl. I maybe wrong but think something like above will last you along time if you try not to beat the crap out of it.

 

[Grit]

Not trying to be rude but a two minute search on craigslist found these in my area,both under 20,000. All with decent hours, decent shape looks like, and leaves enough for fixing it up in your budget and maybe attachments

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/hvo/4243842105.html

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/hvo/4243842105.html

There were two ads for grapples with free shipping in the USA for around $2000

I personally haven't seen too many undercarriage parts wear out on a ctl. I maybe wrong but think something like above will last you along time if you try not to beat the crap out of it.

Not being rude at all. I'm not finding those type machines in my area. A lot of the ones I'm looking at are beat to crap and they are still asking good money for them. I have looked on Craigslist, equipment trader places and just about everywhere. The one you provided links for is in very good shape and very clean and at a very good price. That is not the norm in this area. You are more than welcome to check out dallas/ftworth area craigslist and see what you can find that is comparable. I would be happy to check them out.

Remember, it's just not about initial costs, but long-term cost. I have no idea how long the tracks and its components last, but if you say they last a good long while if you are careful how you treat the machine than I will definitely consider going that route.

Garrett

 

[390eric]

I think I heard at work we get around 900-1000hours out of a set of tracks on our ctl. Thats with either inexperienced guys operating it that don't think, or the owner of the company running it at his house, so basically one in the same are always in it.

And yes just did a quick craigslist in dallas fort worth, didn't find much that I liked either

Seems like everyone and their brother has a ctl in my area, probably why they are cheaper and in nicer shape

 

[Grit]

I think I had read where one can get up to 1500 hrs if really careful and depending on terrain and operator that could be stretched out to as much as 2k hrs. I like that idea, but that would be with all new components I'm sure.

I really need the CTL. I have a slight problem I never mentioned. My pole barn only sits at a max height of 88 inches. All CTLs would fit in there, but the skips are too tall!! The JD 210 is 9 inches taller and the Case 570 is 20 inches taller!!! I would have to rework my barn just to get them in there.

If I would have found a machine like the one in your link, I wouldn't even be typing in this thread right now. I didn't know CTL's could be found in that good of shape at that price! Gosh I'm sick....

I appreciate all of your help.

Garrett

 

[JDOFMEMI]

If I were in your shoes, I would pick a CTL.

I have owned skiploaders and have had problems with the MF versions I was around. Ford skips are good, but both them and the MF only have float and no down pressure on the rear. Case and JD both make really good Skips, and they would be my only 2 choices. For a skip, a Case with a 4-in-1 bucket would be best. 4X4 a must.

The downside is as you already know the lack of versatility. One way around that is to adapt the front to a skid steer style coupler so you could use attachments. You will give up some size, but gain usefulness.


For CTL, I have a Cat 287 MTL. I have been very happy with the utility of it, but when I get a chance to upgrade, I will get a CTL like a 289. Cat is my number one choice, first for my dealer support, and for the strength and ease of control of the machine. I have been in a Deere and did not like it. It was personal preference for me. Bobcat is good, and Kubota seems to be a good machine, but my choice is Cat. Your choice may be different for a variety of reasons. One of mine is comfort in the machine.

With a CTL, you can get forks to move things with, and you will be surprised how often you need them. Get a good tooth bucket, and a smooth lip bucket. A 4-in-1 with teeth would be a good choice as the toothed bucket.
A good brush grapple/root rake would round out the beginners items. You can always add things like post hole augers, trenchers, and other specialized items as needed once you have the tractor to hang them on.
I also build a lot of attachments by buying the blanks and constructing things like V buckets, land planes, large capacity buckets, material handling booms, and the list goes on.

Good luck to you.

 

[390eric]

And I am surprised at myself for pushing a ctl on you because I personally hate them. We have a takeuchi tl150 at work and i hate it. It beats the crap out of you. It squeaks, rattles and drives you nuts all day in it. The company before had a cat 287, thats the cadilliac of ctls in my opinion. Smooth to operate, quiet, comfort most of the day. I probably only spend maybe 15 hours a year in one now, so im not the best judge on them. But I think the versatility of them is awesome and the attachments are endless. Dont forget you can always rent attachments too if you wont have a long term use for them.


I don't know if you would consider shipping one to you, but I would bet if you got one nice enough and cheap enough, you would consider it. I am not working much right now if you have interest in either of those two, Id be willing to go take a look for you. They are actually pretty close to each other and within an hour drive of me.

 

[Grit]

Thanks, Jerry. Every vote for the CTL makes me grin even more. Like I told eric (i guess that's his name if not sorry eric!) if I were to find a machine like that I would more than likely pull the trigger. Problem is, I just can't find them like that in this area. In the shape they are in, I would immediately have to put money in it. Some of the tracks I have seen are just terrible. You can up your price from 20k to 30 k and hardly any other machines come up. It's ridiculous.

I don't have a lot of choices for dealer support in my area. Deere and Cat are about the only ones I have. Deere being about 5 miles away and Cat around 30 miles.

Garrett