Try it again: Tracks over tires vs tracked skid steers, what is the difference

[lake side bob]

To many replies to the old question of tracked skid steers vs wheel skid steers.
My question is what is the difference if any??? between a manufacutured tracked skid steer like ASV machines and a wheel skid steer WITH rubber or steel tracks over the rubber tires.
What is the performance difference?
Maintaince difference? issues?
Operating cost difference?
The industry when to tracked machines over the option of tracks over rubber tires for some reason; any ideas?

 

[CM1995]

What is the performance difference?
Maintaince difference? issues?
Operating cost difference?
The industry when to tracked machines over the option of tracks over rubber tires for some reason; any ideas?

What is the performance difference?
The CTL will outperform the OTT skid in every situation and that comes with a price.

Maintaince difference? issues?
The CTL has all the components of tracked undercarriage - drive motors, rollers, idlers, sprockets, etc. The OTT just has an added set of metal tracks which the grousers, dog bones and bushings wear out. More maintenance with a CTL.

Operating cost difference?
Much higher on a CTL compared to a OTT machine, see answer above. I add a min cost of $15 more per hour for a CTL over a a wheeled skid. (I do not run OTT's anymore)

The reason I switched from OTT's to a CTL was simple convenience. I got tired of the problems you have with OTT's. One problem I hated was changing a flat tire, take off the tracks, fix tire and put tracks back on. That was a major pain. So I decided to try foam filled tires with metal OTT's - big mistake. The debris (mainly rocks, bricks and concrete) that gets caught between the OTT and the rigid foam filled tire will destroy your tires.

Also, you have to be careful with the surfaces (asphalt, concrete, etc) you cross with metal OTT's. A CTL can go where ever, although it may leave some rubber marks.

As far as the rubber OTT"s go, I would stay away from them. I never really liked the concept, so I never tried them - just something about them. Thursday I was dropping my mini-ex off at the Bobcat doc to get a cylinder repacked. In the conversation with my mechanic ( I have known this guy for 20+years, 15 of those years was a cert. Bobcat dealer mechanic and he is our local Bobcat guru) the topic of rubber OTT's came up. He said stay away from them as they will eat your tires and cause additional stress on your driveline, chain case and bearings. The problem is debris can easily get inside the rubber OTT's but doesn't have a way to get out. Rocks, bricks, etc that find their way inside the rubber OTT's act as a grinder, eating away at your tires and tracks. Also this debris will get caught between the wheels and the track, hence tightening the track and putting a lot of force on your axles and drive lines. I didn't particularly think of that but just didn't like the concept of the rubber OTT's from the get go.

Now I am sure rubber OTT's have their place, the situation I am describing is our local working conditions.

The CTL has a higher initial purchase price and a higher per hour operating cost. If you are running one everyday where you need the advantage that tracks gives you (CTL or OTT) then a CTL is a better choice. Occasional use where you need tracks but not all the time then an OTT equipped machine is a better choice $$$ wise.

The best, albeit not the cheapest, solution is to have 1 CTL and 1 wheeled machine and send the machine you need out to do the job. I am willing to accept the higher operating costs of a CTL as a trade off to the added performance you get.

 

[watglen]

CM1995, i couldn't agree more. And that $15/hr adder is bang on imo.

 

[k45]

CM1995, good info, thanks for sharing.

In your experience, do OTT tracks cause significant maintenance issues to the drive train on a wheeled skis steer?

Ken

 

[CM1995]

CM1995, good info, thanks for sharing.

In your experience, do OTT tracks cause significant maintenance issues to the drive train on a wheeled skis steer?

Ken

No problem, I am full of useful and useless information, with the emphasis on useless.:tong

Seriously, I never had a problem with maintenance issues running steel OTT's. The last skid I ran OTT's on was a 2000 863 I bought new. Traded her with 2.5k hours on the meter in 2007 for a new S250. All of those 2.5K hours weren't running OTT's but I would say 600-800 hours of the 2.5K were running OTT's, mostly in winter. That's probably not enough hours to give a precise opinion on whether or not steel OTT's accelerate the normal wear of the chain case and drivetrain.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

CM

You just laid out the best description I have read of the advantages and disadvantages of the CTL/MTL vs Wheels.

I run a 287, and would not trade it for anything with tires. I will pay the added cost per hour because the performance far more than makes up for the cost. I have managed to keep my track system cost to just over $10.00 per hr, and I believe I would have spent around $3 to $4 per hour for tires, so the added cost is not as great, at least in my case.

 

[CM1995]

Thanks Jerry.

I have managed to keep my track system cost to just over $10.00 per hr, and I believe I would have spent around $3 to $4 per hour for tires, so the added cost is not as great, at least in my case.

$10 per hour cost on your 287 is very good number, especially for a MTL. Obviously you take care of it and don't let just any cowboy on it.

I think $15 per hour more is the minimum amount to add to ones pricing - however one does it, hourly or bid. I haven't broke down my numbers for the T250 in a while, it's been sitting over the last 3 years and just now starting to be worked. IMO one needs to get $15-20 more per hour for a CTL/MTL over a wheeled machine just to cover initial purchase and additional operational cost.

The tracks were just replaced on my T250 about 2 months ago for a cost of $2400, $1200 a piece - labor in house and no disposal or delivery fees. (There was one good track and one busted - I am still trying to figure out what to do with the busted track.) That is the 4th set of tracks on that machine and it has just over 2K hours. So roughly a set every 500 hours.

That is probably on the high end of track wear but working conditions for this machine is tough.

 

[k45]

That is the 4th set of tracks on that machine and it has just over 2K hours. So roughly a set every 500 hours.

Ouch! That is a wake up call for those of us debating CTL vs. OTT.

Thanks again.

Ken

 

[JDOFMEMI]

CM

I agree the total should be close to $15. I have tried to take care of it, but it has had some cowboy types on it from time to time, and while it does some work in good conditions, it also does a lot in rocky areas, and concrete demo as well.

I have put 2400 hrs on it after buying used with 1400 on the meter already. It was on with what the original owner said was the secont set of rubber, and he said they were replaced at 800 hrs. I ran them until they looked like rags, and one side finally broke at 2200 hrs. I put new everything on it that time. Tracks, rollers, idlers, rebuilkt the squirrel cages, as they were so loose they looked about to break at any time. I bought all original parts from Cat, and it came to about $16K, plus my own labor to change everything out. Ouch! I saved all the old parts, as some were less worn than others. I ran those to 3600 hours, when one side broke on a job. I brought out my old rag from the time before, and put it on to get a couple hundred more hours.

This time around, I didn't have the kind of $$ to go first class. I bought aftermarket tracks, and for the rollers and idlers that were worn past useable, I mixed and matched with the old ones from before to get an acceptable mix.

I do not expect to get the life out of this combination that I got before, but I did get it together for $4K plus my labor. I know the next time, I will be back to another $16K bill to make it right, if I don't trade out the whole machine by then. I am hoping for 800 hrs or better, but am not sure I will get there. the aftermarket tracks have had trouble staying tight, and the mismatched rollers don't help it any, but, baby has new shoes!

Even with these costs, I do work with the 287 that no other single machine could do. It will run in mud you can't walk in, sand that leaves anything with tires stuck, tight areas that even a small dozer won't fit, and it is so versatile. It is a forklift that will load 5000# items, and move 7000+# items if you can skid them. Just last week, I loaded a piece of 54" RCP on a trailer with it and that weighed about 8000#. I was picking and carrying through foot deep mud with rocks in it 36" RCP weighing nearly 5000#
I do asphalt and concrete removal, brush clearing, and about any other thing you can think of.

All this with a single tool that can be mover behind a pick up. I figure for a small job it is a dozer, loader, forklift, and material handler, all rolled into one.
I know people who do a lot with rubber tired versions, but they can't touch the versatility or performance of the tracks.

Keep in mind, with a tracked machine in an area where rubber would be better, like rock, concrete, asphalt, the track version will perform just as well, or even better, just with a higher operating cost, but a rubber tire machine in a place you need tracks will either perform very poorly, or not at all, so cost is not an issue for you because you just can't do the work.

All in all, I will take my expensive tracks every time, unless I had enough work and money to own one of eack, and only take the rubber tire one when it is justified.

 

[Colorado Digger]

that is a great reply, thank you. i have never been interested in the ctl just because of the cost. with snowplowing we like the 2spd bobcats. for an extra 15-20k on sticker price i am just not that enthusiastic. with undercarriage costs as well that is alot. i can see thier value, maybe just need to warm up some more.
regards,cd

p.s we can usually get by have a small dozer

 

[KSSS]

It took me putting a VTS on a wheeled machine to see the advantage of a tracked machine. I picked up the VTS new on Iron Planet for a 1/3 the cost of one from a dealer. I ran that for almost 1000 hours. After that time I discovered that I didn't want to be without a tracked machine. You might keep an eye out Colorado for a VTS system you can put on one of you Bobcats, its a pretty inexpensive way to decide if a tracked machine is right for your operation. Especially if you have more than one machine, making one of them a tracked machine makes a lot of sense.

JDOFMEMI would not a CTL work just as well as the MTL? I could not see spending that kind of money to keep an MTL moving.

 

[Colorado Digger]

good point ksss. we have the steel grouser tracks. last set i bought for $100 almost brand new at auction. i do like the vts system so we will see about that. after buying another hoe(yanmar100) i am out for this year on any new purchases.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

KSSS

I originally bought the 287 MTL about 5 years ago for a specific project requiring very low ground pressure, and thought "this might be handy to have aropund" .

Boy has it ever been handy. A CTL may be better in most of my uses, and when it finally comes time to replace it, I will have a lot of thinking to do. For the utility I get, it makes sense to keep this one going, but as you see above, I scrimped mightily this last time, just to get through another year or 2, more or less depending on the work.

When I first bought it, I new very little of its strong or weak points, just that it would work for what I originally needed, doing a liner project.

One thing I did not mention above is the ride of the Cat. I have had short time experiences on Bobcat and Tak CTL's, and they both beat me to death in a very short time compared to my Cat. The suspension, and ability to travel at near full speed on relatively rough ground is a top feature to me. I once worked alongside a Bobcat, and I could carry a full bucket of dirt or demo debris wide open from the work area to the stockpile, rarely spilling. The rigid Bobcat had to go MUCH slower, or he would spill half of the load.

If a CTL doesn't have at least close to the same ride I have now, it would be a large point against one.

 

[KSSS]

The ride is nice in an MTL and no vibration/quiet is also nice, ride control allows for faster ground speeds in a CTL but you wont match the ride you get in the MTL. The upside is you wont see the crazy maintaince costs either.

 

[Digdeep]

CM

I agree the total should be close to $15. I have tried to take care of it, but it has had some cowboy types on it from time to time, and while it does some work in good conditions, it also does a lot in rocky areas, and concrete demo as well.

I have put 2400 hrs on it after buying used with 1400 on the meter already. It was on with what the original owner said was the secont set of rubber, and he said they were replaced at 800 hrs. I ran them until they looked like rags, and one side finally broke at 2200 hrs. I put new everything on it that time. Tracks, rollers, idlers, rebuilkt the squirrel cages, as they were so loose they looked about to break at any time. I bought all original parts from Cat, and it came to about $16K, plus my own labor to change everything out. Ouch! I saved all the old parts, as some were less worn than others. I ran those to 3600 hours, when one side broke on a job. I brought out my old rag from the time before, and put it on to get a couple hundred more hours.

This time around, I didn't have the kind of $$ to go first class. I bought aftermarket tracks, and for the rollers and idlers that were worn past useable, I mixed and matched with the old ones from before to get an acceptable mix.

I do not expect to get the life out of this combination that I got before, but I did get it together for $4K plus my labor. I know the next time, I will be back to another $16K bill to make it right, if I don't trade out the whole machine by then. I am hoping for 800 hrs or better, but am not sure I will get there. the aftermarket tracks have had trouble staying tight, and the mismatched rollers don't help it any, but, baby has new shoes!

Even with these costs, I do work with the 287 that no other single machine could do. It will run in mud you can't walk in, sand that leaves anything with tires stuck, tight areas that even a small dozer won't fit, and it is so versatile. It is a forklift that will load 5000# items, and move 7000+# items if you can skid them. Just last week, I loaded a piece of 54" RCP on a trailer with it and that weighed about 8000#. I was picking and carrying through foot deep mud with rocks in it 36" RCP weighing nearly 5000#
I do asphalt and concrete removal, brush clearing, and about any other thing you can think of.

All this with a single tool that can be mover behind a pick up. I figure for a small job it is a dozer, loader, forklift, and material handler, all rolled into one.
I know people who do a lot with rubber tired versions, but they can't touch the versatility or performance of the tracks.

Keep in mind, with a tracked machine in an area where rubber would be better, like rock, concrete, asphalt, the track version will perform just as well, or even better, just with a higher operating cost, but a rubber tire machine in a place you need tracks will either perform very poorly, or not at all, so cost is not an issue for you because you just can't do the work.

All in all, I will take my expensive tracks every time, unless I had enough work and money to own one of eack, and only take the rubber tire one when it is justified.

I think your estimated hourly cost of $15 is too high for a CAT MTL. You should contact your nearest Terex dealer. I received a mailer from my dealer late last year that talked about undercarriage replacement kits and their costs. I looked at it this weekend after reading your post and you can get your entire 287 (RC100 kit) undercarriage replaced (except for the drive motor and the rails) for $12,495 or $9,495 depending on what kit you choose. The most expensive kit includes a set of tracks, two fully assembled sprockets, outboard bearings and all the wheel tubes (now with face seals) and wheels fully assembled. The cheaper kit includes a new set of tracks, fully asembled sprockets and outboard bearings and all 48 idlers and bogies along with all the necessary hardware. This would cost you far less especially since you do your own labor.

The $12,495 kit for the RC100 (287) happens to be the most expensive kit that Terex sells (my entire RC50 kit costs $5,695 with face seals) and even if you replaced the entire undercarriage every 1,000 hours it would cost you less than $15- $12.50 per hour for the full kit at 1,000 hours and $9.50 per hour for the kit without the tubes. It would cost you approximately $8.33 per hour for the full kit with all the tubes if you replaced everything at 1,500 hours and $6.33 per hour if you replaced all the bogies, idlers, tracks, and sprockets without the tubes. Of course you already know that you don't need to replace everything at the same time.

Something to think about before you head back to CAT, or say that the operating cost is near $15 an hour.

 

[DGODGR]

The ride on the MTL is way better than a CTL regardless of ride control. I am surprised to hear that JDO is getting such good life out of the U/C. I demoed a 257, I think it was in '04 or '05, and after some pump tweaking I was very happy with the machines performance. I had 40 hours on it before the salesman got back to me (I guess he had a large area and/or he was very busy). I was uncertain about the machine (I wanted to check out other brands too) so it went back. They called me, shortly after I returned it, and said that I owed them for (2) new tracks (they said the lugs were broken off of the inside), one front idler (plastic-was punctured), and the "Caterpillar" sticker on the loader torque tube. It all came to just over $4000. Of course they said that I could avoid all these charges if I just bought the machine. NO WAY! I could not justify $100/hour operating costs for the U/C alone. IMO it's a great platform for mowing lawns. I also demoed a T300 and it just about rattled my teeth out. I bought an All Wheel Steer (A300) Bobcat instead.
JDO I suggest that you look into Bair Products http://www.bairproducts.net/index.html . They have created a cottage industry by building aftermarket U/C products for the MTLs. I have no direct experience but they appear to me to be supperior to OEM.

 

[DGODGR]

Something to think about before you head back to CAT, or say that the operating cost is near $15 an hour.

He could probably save money, buying parts at Terex instead of at Cat, but his $15/hr included the recovery of the additional intial purchase price of the track machine compared to a unit with tires. One could probably argue that too but it would be pointless since we don't know his buisness model and/or equipment ownership strategies. He said $10/hr for maintenance costs of the MTL.

 

[Digdeep]

He could probably save money, buying parts at Terex instead of at Cat, but his $15/hr included the recovery of the additional intial purchase price of the track machine compared to a unit with tires. One could probably argue that too but it would be pointless since we don't know his buisness model and/or equipment ownership strategies. He said $10/hr for maintenance costs of the MTL.

Good points. Made my assumptions based on his comments that he does his own labor, and at a worse case of having to replace everything every 1,000hrs (not likely).

 

[Digdeep]

The ride on the MTL is way better than a CTL regardless of ride control. I am surprised to hear that JDO is getting such good life out of the U/C. I demoed a 257, I think it was in '04 or '05, and after some pump tweaking I was very happy with the machines performance. I had 40 hours on it before the salesman got back to me (I guess he had a large area and/or he was very busy). I was uncertain about the machine (I wanted to check out other brands too) so it went back. They called me, shortly after I returned it, and said that I owed them for (2) new tracks (they said the lugs were broken off of the inside), one front idler (plastic-was punctured), and the "Caterpillar" sticker on the loader torque tube. It all came to just over $4000. Of course they said that I could avoid all these charges if I just bought the machine. NO WAY! I could not justify $100/hour operating costs for the U/C alone. IMO it's a great platform for mowing lawns. I also demoed a T300 and it just about rattled my teeth out. I bought an All Wheel Steer (A300) Bobcat instead.
JDO I suggest that you look into Bair Products http://www.bairproducts.net/index.html . They have created a cottage industry by building aftermarket U/C products for the MTLs. I have no direct experience but they appear to me to be supperior to OEM.

Sounds like Typical CAT...we can save you money if......

I'm not really surprised that he is getting good life, even though it is a CAT 287. Much of the life a customer gets out of any track machines is a direct result of his/her operating techniques.

however, all of the CAT's have a poor weight distribution and are typically much heavier than the ASV (Terex) machines that use the same undercarriages. Especially the 257 you demoed. That machine is almost a ton heavier than the current PT60 that Terex makes and uses the same undercarriage on.

My experience with Bair Products based on ex-customers that have used them and people I've spoken to is that the steel rollers have a very negative impact on the track life once they are put on. Good concept, but there may be a good reason why ASV (Terex) doesn't use steel rollers although I'm sure they've had many opportunities to do so through the decades they've been making their machines, and probably at a lower cost.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

Digdeep

Thanks for the advise on the Terex parts. If I do another U/C on it, I will definately check it out.