The one man show to grow

[LT-x7]

Good and interesting facts there, and very true about the extreme measures. You could dig a 1,000 acre lake on a bobcat if determined enough. I mean it'll do it, it'd just take ten years.

But seriously LTx-7, I have always done garages with either a bobcat or track loader. You just need a bucket of dirt to get the highest ground pressure possible. Sometimes a half loaded dump truck, but that gets very risky...those walls will and do crack. I was not aware that the builder was going to test the garage and I didn't really do it the way an engineer would want. He never told me until after he had it tested, and said "oh by the way I had the garage tested and the engineer said it was packed really good". He said it got a 95. They were very surprised at how fast we did it...and I was too honestly and I think that's why he had it tested. Here in middle Georgia we have some of the best dirt for compaction. It's red clay and will pack like crazy. It can be sticky and ideal about 65% of the time, but we have sandy soils along with darker dirt that does not like to pack good. We can shear cut dirt that was just filled and compacted. In south Georgia that would never happen.

95% is pretty awesome. I have a hard time getting compaction like that with my backhoe with a full bucket and it weighs a lot more than your CTL. What do you shoot for on lift height with that machine? Having never done the math myself I just assumed the small tracked machines wouldn't have the ground pressure to compact a decent size lift.

 

[dirty4fun]

Around here we use rock chips for backfilling garages, and most trench job spec chips when in the street. Backfill with them and no compaction needed.

 

[lumberjack]

Weight concentration is a more important consideration than overall weight. While your backhoe may weigh more, it still carries a good bit of weight on the back tires due to the mass of the backhoe acting like a counterweight.

With my CTL, lifting the bucket to the max reach position (bucket pins inline horizontally with the arm pins) shifts a great deal of weight to the front of the tracks. Driving in reverse shifts more weight to the front. If I hammer down too hard backwards, the machine will nose over.

I have achieved 95-97%stp in SC/CL soils (red clay around here). My first/biggest project using that method was an 8k yard house pad that passed every nuke test. We also had a small padfoot compactor on the job.

 

[CM1995]

I have to get 98 on the current job I am on, building pad and parking lot. It's been a struggle with all the rain but we have been using chert, which is a clay/gravel mix.

 

[LT-x7]

I have to get 98 on the current job I am on, building pad and parking lot. It's been a struggle with all the rain but we have been using chert, which is a clay/gravel mix.

Wow that sounds fun! What type of machine are you using for compaction?

 

[CM1995]

Wow that sounds fun! What type of machine are you using for compaction?

CS 533E sheeps foot compactor.

 

[Fastdirt]

I have the Mustang MTL325 (TL250) EROPS w/ air. The specs say it weighs just under 12klbs, and the shipping on the bucket said it weighed 1k.

Ok, My 150 is enclosed, so we basically have the same machine. I was just being modest with my 13,000 lb. weight. Theses machines will lift 5,000 lbs. and it will even pick up 7,000 lbs. but can't do much with it. So it is safe to say you can get 17k lbs. with a really full bucket, and that is a lot of weight on the front idlers.

Any new project pics? My new to me mini is literally on my front lawn covered in snow, been there two weeks. Got the dirt fever and cant do anything about it

Yeah, I was just really trying lately to get my past projects posted. I had lost about three computers in the past couple years. I had removed the hard drives and was trying to extract the photos and videos from those hard drives, but I inadvertently erased (formatted) them. So, I just tossed them in the trash yesterday and will have to pick up from here.

Weight concentration is a more important consideration than overall weight. While your backhoe may weigh more, it still carries a good bit of weight on the back tires due to the mass of the backhoe acting like a counterweight.

With my CTL, lifting the bucket to the max reach position (bucket pins inline horizontally with the arm pins) shifts a great deal of weight to the front of the tracks. Driving in reverse shifts more weight to the front. If I hammer down too hard backwards, the machine will nose over.

I have achieved 95-97%stp in SC/CL soils (red clay around here). My first/biggest project using that method was an 8k yard house pad that passed every nuke test. We also had a small padfoot compactor on the job.

Exactly, overall weight doesn't mean it has a higher ground pressure. Especially with a loader having a full bucket of dirt compared to a dozer.

 

[lumberjack]

What's the tread width of your rear tires on your dump? Trying to compare the ctl pressure to a loaded dump (17k per axle in the tandem group)

I am considering adding counterweights to my machine for more stability lifting as well as more dozing power. I plan on offsetting the rear counterweight with weight on the front, under the door. That will keep the stability the same as without the rear counterweight. Loading heaped buckets on soft ground can be hairy. I don't want to tip into the side of the trailer when loading out. As close as you are to 80k with both machines, it's not much of an option for you. There is a factory counterweight option for the rear, lists for $1048, but I figure I could make it out of bar stock for less. For me, I don't see much downside if I add 1-1.2klbs to the machine... some increased undercarriage wear probably. The added weight should reduce track slippage when dozing as well as stability when lifting heavier weights higher up.

I do like the back guard on your bucket, thinking I'll add that to my bucket.


That sucks majorly about your pictures! I suggest having a redundant back up from here on out. Lots of marketing potential in your pictures, as well as the nostalgia.

 

[Fastdirt]

What's the tread width of your rear tires on your dump? Trying to compare the ctl pressure to a loaded dump (17k per axle in the tandem group)

I am considering adding counterweights to my machine for more stability lifting as well as more dozing power. I plan on offsetting the rear counterweight with weight on the front, under the door. That will keep the stability the same as without the rear counterweight. Loading heaped buckets on soft ground can be hairy. I don't want to tip into the side of the trailer when loading out. As close as you are to 80k with both machines, it's not much of an option for you. There is a factory counterweight option for the rear, lists for $1048, but I figure I could make it out of bar stock for less. For me, I don't see much downside if I add 1-1.2klbs to the machine... some increased undercarriage wear probably. The added weight should reduce track slippage when dozing as well as stability when lifting heavier weights higher up.

I do like the back guard on your bucket, thinking I'll add that to my bucket.


That sucks majorly about your pictures! I suggest having a redundant back up from here on out. Lots of marketing potential in your pictures, as well as the nostalgia.

Thanks for your sympathy about my pictures.:Banghead I mean it's funny to think I'm that broken over it, but I am. Or should I say I was, this is my year for just trying to brush things off. Can't get to caught up on things.


The rear tandems are 8" per tire and a total of 22" wide per dually, so that leaves 6" between footprints. Those are measurements on the top of the tires. I'm sure the loaded footprint is slightly bigger. The overall width is 8' and the axles are 55" apart. I'm pretty sure if I were to back that dump truck over the area packed by a CTL that it would compact it even more and leave an indented footprint. Unless it was perfect dirt it might hold up. The tandems do actually have a high ground PSI I'd think.


You're right about the extra weight being a problem on the lowboy. $1048 is a lot of money. So, that's one less thing to worry about for me. I'll have to look up this counterweight and check it out. I would definitely suggest the back guard on the bucket. Picking up logs is by far the greatest advantage of having one. It will also pick up a whole lot more tree and demo debris and keep it off the boom and more importantly out of the cab. One thing I really like about is that it will pick up a lot more dirt. I mean a lot more. The way it is designed with the bars only about 2 inches apart and it acts like a solid plate to hold the dirt and lets you get a really big bucket. It'll load trucks much faster with the back guard...and you can see through it.

 

[nedly05]

Did you build the guard on your bucket or did it come that way? Just wondering the dimensions on the steel. 3/16 x 2?

 

[lumberjack]

I agree on not getting caught up on things, but not learning from them would be a terrible waste.

Federal Bridge Law allows 17klbs per axle in that group (governing law here), the same as our ballpark weight on the CTL. The CTL tracks are ~18" wide each, 36" overall. 4 x8" tires makes for 32" of tread width. So, assuming an equal weight, and excluding the vacillating weight transfer on the CTL, the dump truck has an ~11% advantage in contact pressure. It also has the advantage of the kneading action between the tires and a second axle following right behind it. Still, it's not unreasonable to assume that you can achieve similar compaction with the CTL vs the tandem dump truck, although it'll take more passes most likely. Tandems are used for proof rolls, so all in all, using a CTL for compaction isn't such taboo.

That price is list price, I'm a dealer rep for a Mustang/Gehl dealer and can get it at cost. Still, it's over a dollar a pound, plus shipping. Also the counterweights are what appear to be ~1/2" plate cut into shape and laminated together with the bolts they hang on. 8" bar stock looks to be the correct width, 1/2"-1" bar stock is far cheaper than $1/lb.




I have a grapple for logs, but heaping dirt up is where it's at for me and that back guard.

 

[LT-x7]

Federal Bridge Law allows 17klbs per axle in that group (governing law here), the same as our ballpark weight on the CTL. The CTL tracks are ~18" wide each, 36" overall. 4 x8" tires makes for 32" of tread width. So, assuming an equal weight, and excluding the vacillating weight transfer on the CTL, the dump truck has an ~11% advantage in contact pressure. It also has the advantage of the kneading action between the tires and a second axle following right behind it. Still, it's not unreasonable to assume that you can achieve similar compaction with the CTL vs the tandem dump truck, although it'll take more passes most likely. Tandems are used for proof rolls, so all in all, using a CTL for compaction isn't such taboo.

I'm confused by your math above.
Ground pressure is measured in pounds per square inch, correct?
So using the weight of the CTL at 17,000 lets assume with the bucket heaped in the air it transfers 90% of that weight to the front 18" of the tracks like mentioned earlier in the thread. That gives us a contact patch of 648²". 17k / 648 = 26.23 pounds per square inch for the loaded CTL
For the truck the tires are 8" wide x maybe 12" (just guessing here) x 4 tires per axle = 348²". So max legal axle 17k / 348 = 48.85 pounds per square inch for the truck.
I don't know about everyone else, but if I'm using my dump for compaction off road I put a few extra scoops in it. Which would put it up more around 20k per axle.
So if my math is correct were looking at 26.23 compared to 48.85.
Maybe the contact patch on the CTL with the loaded bucket is considerably smaller than we think?
All of this is a little irrelevant because Fastdirt have proved its possible to pass the compaction test with the CTL, and that is all that really matters.

 

[lumberjack]

The difference in our numbers is related to the length of the contact patch. I set them as being equal in length whereas you put the tracks contact length 50% longer than the tires. Then it's just a matter of the difference in width, 36" for tracks vs 34" for tires. It's an oversimplification on my part, but my point was to illustrate that CTLs aren't impractical for compaction in cohesive soils due to COG shifting far forward and their overall heavy weights.

8"x12"x4 tires is 384sqin, not 348. It looks like that was a typo though as your psi came out correct.


This was an 8k yard fill for a house pad that was tested. I start compacting with the CTL at 2:40. At the beginning you can see the marks from the pad foot compactor. My helper was on the far side taking out some additional trees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvrbRacTEQw

 

[CM1995]

As I said in the other post compaction can be achieved by many means and methods as it's all a function of lift thickness, weight and manipulation. One important factor I left out was moisture content of the material which is by far the most frustrating issue.

Standard procedure written into every job spec I have worked with includes proof rolling the residual soil with a loaded tandem prior to the first fill lift. This is almost always observed by the geotechnical engineer of record for the project. A loaded tandem will find any poor spots. The majority of the time we are also required to proof roll the final sub grade under building pads, roads and parking areas even if every lift has been nuke tested. The old saying is "The dirt won't lie when the truck rolls over it".

A loaded tandem is also a great compactor but is slow, I prefer a sheepsfoot that covers more SF per pass. When I am doing fill lifts I like to start at the closest point where the trucks will be entering the lift, if it's possible. Start your lift and have trucks drive/back over the lift you are putting in. This combined with whatever you are using to spread the material will start the compaction process and cut down on the amount of rolling time with the compactor.

Not only does this method speed up your compaction, it gets your material to the edge of the lift and makes less work of spreading it. Less work in spreading is less diesel burned and less wear and tear on the equipment.

 

[LT-x7]

The difference in our numbers is related to the length of the contact patch. I set them as being equal in length whereas you put the tracks contact length 50% longer than the tires. Then it's just a matter of the difference in width, 36" for tracks vs 34" for tires. It's an oversimplification on my part, but my point was to illustrate that CTLs aren't impractical for compaction in cohesive soils due to COG shifting far forward and their overall heavy weights.

8"x12"x4 tires is 384sqin, not 348. It looks like that was a typo though as your psi came out correct.


This was an 8k yard fill for a house pad that was tested. I start compacting with the CTL at 2:40. At the beginning you can see the marks from the pad foot compactor. My helper was on the far side taking out some additional trees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvrbRacTEQw

Yeah that was a typo, my bad.
Cool video!

What was the deal with that pad, did you have to truck in material that was suitable to build on? That can get expensive in a hurry.

 

[lumberjack]

Yeah, all 8k yards hauled in at just over $7/yard. Hauled 1k yards of cut dirt out. The site was horribly wet, at the onset about half of the house's footprint was under water for most of the year. I ended up digging a sump at the corner of the clearing with bleed ditches running to it and pumped the water across the site to a ditch for roughly 6 months.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRVeueqfmTk

We brought the grade up 5-7' (to FFE). We had a 10" rain last year, this will put the floor of the house roughly 3' higher than the crest from that rain. They started on the footers Mid January.

 

[stock]

10" of rain good weeks rain so........



This is in millimeters and approx 25mm to the inch.......

 

[lumberjack]

Those 10" came in a couple days. The ditch running along the side of the property has 2 6' rcp running under the road. The waters crested about a foot over the top of the road.

We got 63" last year, 60" the year before. 07 was a drought with 22".

 

[CM1995]

If I remember correctly Alabama had met it's average yearly rainfall in July last year. So far 2014 seems to be on '13's track.

 

[AlldayRJ]

That bucket spill guard is impressive. Im in the process of putting a tooth bucket together, not sure if i want to add one to that or my flat bucket. Maybe make it removeable so i can see to grade easier?

Sucks about the pictures but spring is coming, there will be more