The New verses the Old

[CM1995]

Currently I have been running two different lifts on two different jobs, one being a brand new (26 hrs) JLG G6-42A from United and my old standby Ol' Blue a 1998 534D6.

The JLG is rented by the GC on a retail job we are doing the site work on and Ol' Blue is on an industrial selective demo project that is mine. The GC doesn't have anyone to run the JLG so they are paying me to unload trucks and what not as they come in which is not a bad gig, it pays well.

I have spent the last 2 weeks running Ol' Blue - taking down a metal structure, framing out door openings and setting a load leveler. The JLG has just been used to unload materials from tractor trailers as they arrive. There was the unloading of the steel building for the GC with a well worn rented JCB in the rain that seemed to not have a muffler but my therapist said it's best to sequester that incident....

Back to the topic. Ol' Blue is superior to the new JLG in pretty much every facet except lift height and the fact it's new, although I'll take Ol' Blue's leaks as they come, which really leaves the JLG superior only in lift height. Ol' Blue has all the boom functions on one joystick - out, in and fork tilt. To swing the carriage side to side it has a lever on the left side of the dash. The JLG you have two joysticks and can't float the boom and the forks at the same time unless you have an extra arm or two on the right side.:Banghead Not having the fork tilt on the same joystick as the boom is really bad engineering and ergonomics in my book.

Visibility is far superior in Ol' Blue compared to the JLG as well. You can't see the right rear of the JLG unless you use the little mirror mounted on that side. In the cockpit of Ol' Blue you can see all 4 tires and where you are going.

So product comparison in and 15 year old technology wins hands down if I am the judge. I really wish JLG wouldn't have killed the Gradall telehandler line, they should still be making a new 534D6 as what they are producing is inferior to prior technology IMO, whatever that's worth.:tong

 

[JDOFMEMI]

Nice write up CM. I feel that way about a lot of the new equipment that I see. Verry few pieces are truly improvements over the late 90's to early 2000's machines. I feel that for a good long time we will look back and regard those years as the best equipment ever made. I don't know which I dislike more, the ongoing change to all electronic controls, or the emissions crap. They both take away from the value of the machine, IMO

 

[CM1995]

Thanks Jerry.

Verry few pieces are truly improvements over the late 90's to early 2000's machines. I feel that for a good long time we will look back and regard those years as the best equipment ever made.

I couldn't agree more. Some of my most dependable equipment - 1998 Gradall, 2001 334D mini and a 2001 F250 powerstroke.

Yesterday I got in the F250 to move it around on the site and I thought to myself, I would be just as happy in this truck than my 2013 350 I just got and my foreman is lucky we are busy.

What kills me about this JLG telehandler is the apparent going backwards in function, safety and ergonomics. They bought out a great machine (Gradall) only to shelve it and make this turd. Visibility is terrible on the the right side of the JLG from the operators right shoulder back to the rear of the machine. The two joystick configuration is just awkward. The boom out, in, up and down on one and the frame and fork tilt on the other. This makes it aggravating to float a load onto a truck or scaffold smoothly.

I would have to say the new emissions will be the achilles hill. All the sensors and high pressure fuel systems will render the new machines a "dealer" only fix unless one wants to invest heavily in software and specialty tools. It's rather depressing to think about but with the current economy all I have to worry about is my older stuff running as the new equipment is out of my price range.

Which reminds me I need to get some exhaust fluid for my new pickup..

 

[barklee]

I would have to agree with you. The new JLG machines are turds as from what ive experienced. We rented a 6000 to shoot concrete into a building do the same exact lift all day long. There is no way to float these newer machines (as you said). Annoying is an understatement there, especially since there "were" plenty of machines that used to do that. They seem underpowered 6000 and 10000 and feel light in the rear end. Genie did the same thing with the elimination of the TH Terex machines, those were tough old lifts and im guessing the emissions were the reason but i dont know.

Im just hoping JLG doesnt change the Lull 1044c! That would break my heart!!

 

[CM1995]

We rented a 6000 to shoot concrete into a building do the same exact lift all day long. There is no way to float these newer machines (as you said). Annoying is an understatement there, especially since there "were" plenty of machines that used to do that.

That's what gets me. Why in the world did they change the configuration to the "new" style. Is this where "new" product development is going? Is JLG even asking what operators prefer or just making a design and sticking to it? I guess United Rentals and Hertz are buying enough units that it doesn't matter.:beatsme

I don't really know why this gets under my skin so much since I rarely use a lift or operate one but an engineering/product development blunder such as this can't go by unnoticed.

 

[barklee]

That's what gets me. Why in the world did they change the configuration to the "new" style. Is this where "new" product development is going? Is JLG even asking what operators prefer or just making a design and sticking to it? I guess United Rentals and Hertz are buying enough units that it doesn't matter.:beatsme

I don't really know why this gets under my skin so much since I rarely use a lift or operate one but an engineering/product development blunder such as this can't go by unnoticed.

I assume most of it goes back to the emissions changes..... All but the joystick changes. I think they went with looks over functionality this time. They did the same with the 6000 and 9000 Lulls. Why in the world they ever got rid of the 644 and 844 is beyond me! I dont think they really care what you like, per se i think the big rental houses have a price point and these OEMs cut corners to get to it and make money. Correct me if im way off base, not trying to start a heated debate......

 

[icestationzebra]

You were correct if you said the new machines don't have as much power. With emissions engines, the rules change at 100hp. That is why you see many machines with 98-99hp. The older machines were 110-115hp, many of the new ones are <100hp.

Joysticks are another story. There has been talk for years that the industry will consolidate on one pattern but nobody wants to give up what they have and nobody can agree, so everything stays the same. I used to work for Lull and Sky Trak, and every different model line had a different control pattern. :Banghead

Visability will only get worse as more emissions are tightened due to CATs, DPFs and larger radiators.

ISZ

 

[willie59]

I have to jump in the boat with you CM. We have a 534D-6, use it on the yard frequently and it's been on rent many times. It never complains, rarely have a problem with it, and can describe it with one word...anvil.

 

[oceanobob]

Reach Lift controls

We had 'grown up' on forklifts (warehouse/yard/offroad and offroad tall mast) and began to grow right toward the Gradall. Then we noticed four wheel steering and we rented JLGs until we scored a Terex (right before Genie model intervention).
*
After careful study, we concluded the forklift controls on the Gradall are 'perfect' for typical forklift work such as moving materials on and off the dock, unloading a truck, etc.

The Terex doesn't have the two sticks like some others, but it is a bit dumb also, as the fork tilt requires holding a button in (mode change). Yard chores isnt it's forte.

But these modern, non traditional controls are tailored to the operation 'way up in the air' by seconding the tilt function and having the reach and boom functions as primary. This "new" control scheme is less fun when doing the usual materials shuffle.
*****
But four wheel steer and crab steer sure are nice.

I recall these control changes (compared to the Gradall machine) have been in place for a while and they were this way before the emission stuff.

 

[CM1995]

I have to jump in the boat with you CM. We have a 534D-6, use it on the yard frequently and it's been on rent many times. It never complains, rarely have a problem with it, and can describe it with one word...anvil.

Yeah, they are tough ol birds. Major repairs I have done in the last 10 years - hoses on the rear, starter and seat. I have had offers to sell it but the money is not enough to replace the value the machine has.

 

[Dualie]

had a new cat 6K delivered to the job the other day. I pretty much hate it. viability is horrible. The entire left side of the machine is completely un seen from the operators station. Its got no power any sort of hill start will require 1st gear.

the only thing it has going for it is that its pretty stable at long extensions. Not a lot of height on this project.

Things I really hate about it, visibility! second is the fact that you have to release the parking brake which is a lever not a switch BEFORE you select a gear, or it will go into neutral and roll whatever way the ground is sloping. sometimes you really have to bang the park brake lever around before it will allow itself to select a drive direction. the lights on the boom are nice and I do like how the steering selection modes will wait for the front wheels to come back across center before they change from crab to front steer.

Wish I would have got an 8K but oh well.

 

[CM1995]

The last Cat lift I ran was the TH460B I bought back in mid 2000's. Went through a couple of gauge/dash units under warranty and I eventually traded it in on an excavator. I was happy to see that unit go.

Duallie that parking brake issue sounds dangerous. None of the new machines seem to have any visibility. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I don't think the new JLG I have been running is Tier 4 as it looks to have normal exhaust/muffler. So this lack of visibility is just poor design.

Someone up thread said it and I think it's the case. The big rental houses purchase most of the new telehandlers rolling of the line by a very large margin. The Manufacturers are all competing on price trying to get their units into United, Sunblet and Hertz's fleets. The Rental houses are competing against each other on rates. $$ is first and foremost - operation, ergonomics, safety ect is farther down the list. So this is what one ends up with...:beatsme

An owner/operator looking to buy a lift today needs to search for a good used late 90's/early 00's model. Spend some money to re-furbish it and run circles around the new machines.

At least someone at JLG or United had the forethought to put a flashing amber light on the cab - since you can't see out of the damn thing at least other people can see you coming.

 

[Dualie]

yea the parking brake is dangerous! I rolled a beam off the other side of the truck trying to unload on a slight incline. Missed some really high dollar grape vines by a couple of feet. To close for my comfort let alone rolling a 2K beam off the truck.

they put a mirror on the right side but if you have the boom in anywhere near a proper position for travel in un level conditions it becomes useless. even if you can see it, the dang thing shakes so bad you cant see anything in it. but they blinky light is a nice feature to see flashing off of things to really distract you when operating. but it does have some nice boom lights on it that do a decent job of lighting up the carriage.


Oh and it was 4 hours late to the job site because the first one they sent got half way up the carrier and the transmission blew its guts out, so they had to go down to their other yard 40 miles away to pick up a different one.

 

[Shenandoah]

That's what gets me. Why in the world did they change the configuration to the "new" style. Is this where "new" product development is going? Is JLG even asking what operators prefer or just making a design and sticking to it? I guess United Rentals and Hertz are buying enough units that it doesn't matter.:beatsme

I don't really know why this gets under my skin so much since I rarely use a lift or operate one but an engineering/product development blunder such as this can't go by unnoticed.

One of the reasons newer machines, and for that matter 'newer' anything, don't seem to have the inherently decent human interface characteristics the old ones were known for stems from the way they are designed. Back in the day designers came up trough the ranks via their ability to actually build things they had designed. They were required to have shop knowledge or at least an understanding of how the manufacturing process worked. Not so much these days.

Now they have to be proficient at CAD over everything else. In other words, it's their ability to use software that counts. And working in an environment where very few of their co-workers has ever had dirty fingernails takes its' toll. It's sort of an inbreeding of desk jockeys.

Years ago I ran a machine shop for a design house. We built the stuff that came out of the office. Actually, we CORRECTED the stuff those folks would dream up. Some of the younger designers had never as much as held a drill in their hands unlike the older guys that could build anything they designed. There was a stark difference between the generations.

One day a young guy who was an apprentice designer who thought the world revolved around CAD walked into my shop and asked me if he could spend the day watching us work. I asked him why, and he said it would give him a better perspective of how the parts he designed were made. I agreed it would, and took him over to a corner of the shop were one of our lathes was set up, and then walked him down a line of machines and equipment...

Me: Do you know what this machine is? Him: I think it's a lathe.
Me: Do you know what this machine does? Him: Not really.
Me: It removes material.

Next machine...
Me: Do you know what this machine is? Him: I think it's a milling machine.
Me: Do you know what this machine does? Him: Not really.
Me: It removes material.

Next machine...
Me: Do you know what this machine is? Him: I think it's a drill press.
Me: Do you know what this machine does? Him: Not really.
Me: It removes material.

Next machine...
Me: Do you know what this machine is? Him: I think it's a grinder.
Me: Do you know what this machine does? Him: Not really.
Me: It removes material.

Next machine...
Me: Do you know what this machine is? Him: I think it's a shear.
Me: Do you know what this machine does? Him: Not really.
Me: It removes material.

Next machine...
Me: Do you know what this machine is? Him: I think it's a saw.
Me: Do you know what this machine does? Him: Not really.
Me: It removes material.

Next machine...
Me: Do you know what this machine is? Him: I think it's a punch press.
Me: Do you know what this machine does? Him: Not really.
Me: It removes material.

Next machine...
Me: Do you know what this machine is? Him: I think it's a sander.
Me: Do you know what this machine does? Him: Not really.
Me: It removes material.

Me: Are you starting to see that the manufacturing process is substantially a subtractive process?
Him: I had no idea...

I then took him around and showed him other machines that were part of the additive process like welders, the casting area, the assembly area, etc., and the forming machines like the metal brakes, et al. But I wanted him to get it out of his head that simply because a part was specified it didn't automatically appear in its' final form. Even parts that were cast or molded start out as a subtractive process when making the molds.

The point is there is currently in today's manufacturing a huge disconnect between the design teams and the manufacturing teams. This disconnect spills over into the user environment where the customer has to use whatever was designed by folks whose #1 ability is their skillset on a computer, not the 'real' world. Now that's not to say there isn't a massive amount of folks who actually know what they're doing, it's more to point out a fly in the ointment.

And if you couple the above conundrum with bean counters who control the bottom line things start to get really ugly. Add in restrictive Patents that lock up good technology excluding others from using it and you can see why some companies come out with the most god-awful ways of doing things.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Interesting post Shenandoah The part I don't understand though is who actualy tells the design teams the industry wants needs all the latest 'bells and whistles' on equipment?

I suppose it gets old for folks on here reading my posts knocking the newer gear but facts are facts. I have a neighbour with a newish D3 he bought for digging out wattle and lantana bushes . . . availability almost nil with electronics issues . . . electronics on a little tiny machine like that? I also note on here there are threads from owners with the same type of problems.

By contrast a mate of mine has a 1950's era D4 that never stops. There is a huge disconnect between design and application and most of the manufacturers need to get back to the basics.

Cheers.

 

[Shenandoah]

The part I don't understand though is who actualy tells the design teams the industry wants needs all the latest 'bells and whistles' on equipment?

Let's see...take a generation of youngers that were brought up with LEDs in/on everything but their Cheerios, who spent the majority of their youth playing video games, add in an overwhelming sense that 'old folks don't know squat', and that's what you get.

Also, bells and whistles cost relatively nothing to add to machines if they are electronic in nature compared to mechanical things these days.

What many designers fail to realize is they are trading one monotony for another thinking they will be eliminating the tedious tasks of yesteryear. To them it looks like progress. What they are really accomplishing is a slow death spiral as the things they create become obsolete and unserviceable over time.

It's highly possible that the only folks actually getting any work accomplished in the not to distant future will be those folks who can fix things with a good old fashion wrench. Because after the factory that produces that new fangled "Auto-Get-er-Done 3000 Super Elite Work-o-mizer" that some machines come with goes out of business, good luck getting the brains of the machine to work going forward. If you can't replace the electronics, the iron will be of little use.

The boys flying those F-35s may be the first to figure this out...

 

[briscoetab]

I definitely agree with what was said about their being disconnect between design and end user. I also agree with the fact that equipment is beginning to rely on electronics and other stuff that is unserviceable by most end users without a deep wallet to invest in the latest diagnostic equipment. That being said, I do have to say some of the inventions of late have made work much easier and way more tolerable.

I know this is a section for telehandlers but I think we have already started straying from that. So let me tell you what I do like about the new stuff. We just bought a brand new Cat 950K wheel loader. One thing I hate about wheel loaders are visibility issues with such a large piece of equipment that you have to move a lot and move it fast in most operating conditions. If you hit a car in that thing you probably wouldn't even feel it. This new one has a back up camera, I love it. Having that backup camera is not a necessity but I feel it is a lot safer and way easier to operate with it. Can I operate one just as fast and efficiently without? Yes I can but having it there makes me feel alot better and I can do things I wouldn't have done without it.

Another feature I like is the joystick in it. You can operate almost every function from that joystick, all functions with the load are located on the joystick, you can select forward and reverse with a switch on the joystick, you can move your forks in and out with it, the horn is on it and the down shift function for the auto transmission is on it. Also, you can press a button to select a high load position and low load position, as well as load tilt (kickout). Then you slap the joystick left, right, down or up and it automatically goes into position. Again can I get by without this feature and do it just as fast? Yes, but it is much more convenient and I think once you get use to using it it's faster and more efficient when loading dumb truck or something similar.

Another feature we do not use but I think is awesome, is the auto load weight. All you do is hit a button and turn it on then it weights everything automatically and will send it to a printer to print out in the cab. It sense everything by itself so you do not have to hit anything to weight it. I haven't used this feature so I do not know how well it works but it sounds awesome.

Another piece of equipment that I think technology has help make more efficient and safer is cranes. The load computers are great, way better than having to look at load charts and get weight on everything your lifting. I have uses these quite a bit and have not had one problem with them, I still use the load charts to double check (if I know it is getting close to the limits) usually but it has not been needed. Another feature are the clicks you hear when using the hoist on the crane, this isn't in older cranes and it is great, you can really finesse a load when moving it up and down. You can drop a 30ton load a half inch very slowly and know you are by listening to the clicks.

Well I could go on and on. I know most of what I mentioned has its problems and are more likely to break but they save time and money when they are operating correctly. Before you say, "yea when they are working but then you have to spend 5,000 dollars on a service call because of a sensor or a realay or something". This is true but better having that back up camera and seeing a person standing right behind the loader in a blind spot than not having the camera and killing them and paying the family 5,000,000 dollars in a lawsuit. Or tipping a crane over with a 20 ton load extended 120 feet in the air.

I love the reliability of old stuff and many times there are design flaws with the new stuff but something they are getting it right. I hate working on all the new equipment it is difficult and many times impossible without some kind of computer. I am just saying there are new bells and whistle that I like but some stuff does not need changed. I also can say I could live without all the new stuff and probably get just as much work done but it is nice sometimes.

 

[Big Dave]

I realize I am late into this and it's been almost ten years since I've operated a telehandler; I used a rental machine to pull cylinder heads off of an old diesel locomotive that being dismantled for parts before scrapping. Ten years before that I worked in the scrap and salvage yard at the jet engine plant that I spent most of my life working for. We had a small Skytrak that mounted a Bobcat skid loader bucket with grapples on it, instead of forks, I think it was a 5522 or something like that and they bought the machine to load metal chips into open top semis as opposed to paying a contractor to accomplish the same task with mobile crane and clam bucket.

I can easily identify with the right rear visibility issues because all we had was mirror that was next to useless. I was using the Skytrak to load a compactor one day and as I was backing up I ran into another forklift, a standard industrial truck of 3500# capacity. I hit this fellow for two reasons, the first being that since we all knew to stay well away from anyone operating the machine because of the visibility and also because of that I seldom checked behind me when I reversed course. The root cause was that the fellow had driven into my work area not because he was delivering something, but because he came to ******** with another of my co-workers. He was a bit peeved at me over the collision and I was mortified by it.

It really seems ridiculous to me that no one seems to have thought of putting back-up cameras on these things as a standard safety feature. It was bad enough running into that other forklift, but if it had been a person I probably would have seriously injured him or worse.

As for design issues the worst example I've seen of that was on a nifty little machine built for installing crossties into railroad tracks that was fairly cheap so light in weight that it could be pulled around with a half ton pickup truck. The manufacturer brought it to the railroad museum I used to work for as a volunteer and demonstrated it for us. It worked very well, except that the levers worked exactly the opposite of everything I'd ever operated. For example, if you wanted to lift the boom you pushed forward and you pulled it back to lower it.All of the other levers worked in the same fashion and when I asked why the difference, he said they just thought about it logically. Apparently none of the people who designed the thing ever operated any kind of equipment before.

 

[Knepptune]

I experience two different emotions when I see new equipment. It looks sweet but I'm usually sick to my stomach after seeing how things are made anymore. Back up camera's are nice but how about just thinking a little bit about how to make it more visible for the operator. I was a 10k low boom cat telehandler the other day and if someone sent me one those to rent I would send it right back. The sweet electric controls were delayed so the stupid thing was about three steps behind me the whole time. You couldn't see a thing unless to were pushing dirt with the mast or had the load 15ft in the air. Give me a twenty yr. old grove crane and a 90's gradall and I can run circles around the stuff coming out today.

 

[kent_323is]

Reading through the posts about the new equipment, and the engineers that design it..... Being an engineer myself, I totally agree with you guys. A lot of the young guys onlu know how to operate a CAD station, and have no idea how to actually make anything. The guys that work for me are getting a better experience though, I spend time training them on the applicable tools for the parts we design and make, and they have to make the first prototype parts themselves. If you can figure out a better way to design the part so its easier to make by hand, then typically you have simplified the part, saved cost and made it easier for production. Plus I can still out run them on the CAD platform we run!
Part of the problem with the new engineers is the school curriculum, very little hands-on training, both in high school and college. When I went to high school, I took the vocational welding and auto mechanics courses, then in college I built a collegiate racecar as senior design project. Our team got access/sponsorship from a machine shop, which let us use their equipment in the evenings to make racecar parts. You learn a lot when you have to turn the cranks on the lathes and milling machines yourself... Some parts got redesigned to be easier to build! That same high school has now eliminated the welding program and downsized the auto mechanics program. That's what cuts to education do.
A lot of the engineers just lack the hands on exposure that is needed to actually design and improve something.
I'm also not a fan of all the electronic controls that the new stuff has, more complexity typically equals less reliability, and harder to fix.
Which is why my hobby stuff doesn't have much or any electronics on them!
Plus I just love the "feel" that you have with mechanical hydraulic controls.
I've run both an older skytrac telehandler and a "newer" JLG telehandler, and I much prefer the older one. Even the newer one I've used sounds better than the latest and "greatest" new equipment.
I may be one of the younger guys here in this discussion (33 yr old) but I'm old school all the way when it comes to heavy equipment!