Starting Fluid. Used too much! ??

[ddiiggy]

Drott 40 (45?) Cruz Air Rubber Mount excavator.
Looks pretty much like this picture but I thought it is a '45.
I am pretty sure it has a Detroit Diesel engine in it.
They say it does run.

I was told that sometime somebody trying to start the engine used "too much ether".
It wasn't me. Really. :tong
Apparently they did get it started.

Now it 'sucks oil up from the crankcase when you try to shut it down'.
Maybe they even said it was hard to get it to shut down. ??

Can somebody try to explain to me what happened?? :beatsme
...how to FIX it? Tear down?

 

[willie59]

Are you planning on buying the machine? If it does have a Detroit, and had to have starting fluid to start it, it was worn out anyway. A good/tight Detroit doesn't need starting fluid. They probably busted a piston, probably bent a connecting rod as well. If I was going to buy it, it would have to be a cheap price because I'm going through the whole engine if it's a Detroit.

 

[qball]

if it is running after shutdown, it prolly sucked in a blower oil seal and is running on crankcase oil.
this condition would also explain an ether dependency.

 

[ddiiggy]

if it is running after shutdown, it prolly sucked in a blower oil seal and is running on crankcase oil.
this condition would also explain an ether dependency.

Is blower oil seal easy to fix? Expensive?


I am not planning to buy this machine. I am doing some work for the guy that owns it.
I used this machine ~15 years ago and remember it being OK.
We went by it and I asked if it still worked. That is the story that he told me.

I would like to have it running for some of the work that he has planned, but I don't think he is going to spend much on fixing it.

 

[qball]

if i remember correctly, it is pretty easy. i think the hardest part is timing it all back up.
i don't think anything on a jimmy is expensive. you can get a rebuild kit for most of them for under two grand.

 

[JonesBros]

Man, seeing that pic brings back a lot of bad memories :throwup

We used to own a Drott 40 Cruiz Air w/ a Detroit in it, it was a piece! We unfortunately traded it in on a newer Case 1085B Cruiz Air which were a lot nicer, but still very freakin temperamental machines. They have incredible lifting capabilities, since they are classified as somewhat of a material handler.

I didn't get to run the Drott 40, but I got my handful on a 1085B. They're lemons from the assembly line. Between the contacts in the center section corroding and getting dirty and having to swing around 30 times to lift up the stabilizers. Just don't bend the 3 tubes in the middle of everything, or you'll never get out of Neutral without popping off the clips to the cable. We just recently made one of them tube assemblies from scratch w/ more clearance so it doesn't get stuck from rusting.

A big PITA, if your seriously looking to do some ditch work with a machine, invest in like a late 80's early 90's Gradall G3WD.

 

[dayexco]

http://www.machinerytrader.com/list...6385207&GUID=7A501C175F5C4909B3A93484F74CADC7


better hurry up and use it, looks like it's for sale

 

[Dig-UP]

http://www.machinerytrader.com/list...6385207&GUID=7A501C175F5C4909B3A93484F74CADC7


better hurry up and use it, looks like it's for sale

I don't think that the machine in the pic is the one ddiiggy is talking about... Just used the pic for reference.

Drott 40 (45?) Cruz Air Rubber Mount excavator.
Looks pretty much like this picture but I thought it is a '45.
I am pretty sure it has a Detroit Diesel engine in it.
They say it does run.

 

[CAT D8 N]

We have got a lot of diesel mechanics here but I am no good at that.. sorry

 

[Hendrik]

Basically you got a bigger bang than the engine could handle.
In the world of Mercedes Benz passenger Diesels it is a big no no to use ether based starting aids, as it will blow your pre chambers to hell. However you can use WD40 or similar.

 

[Komatsu 150]

Sadly WD40 is not nearly as effective for starting as it used to be as they changed the propellant.

 

[motrack]

your statement about it wanting to suck oil and keep on running when you shut it down makes me wonder if they are trying to kill it with the emergency stop?

The emergency stop is just a flap that shuts off the air intake and will cause the engine to suck hard enough to ingest oil from bad blower seals.

sounds like that engine suffers from used too much when new not damage from starting fluid.

 

[MKTEF]

Using ether is ok in smal amounts.
If u use to much ether, u will get leaks over the piston rings.(ignition is so "explosive" it blows over the piston rings)
Taken out u can see that the rings are not giving u the compression needed.
Soot will be leaking along the side of the piston.
Next u will not get it started normaly because compression is gone.
Then u got a ether dependant engine, that will need ether everytime u start it.

 

[AtlasRob]

Next u will not get it started normaly because compression is gone.
Then u got a ether dependant engine, that will need ether everytime u start it.

Thanks MKTEF you just answered the question :notworthy

It was drummed into me when very young to only use ether as a very very last resort as engines become addicted to it, but I never knew or understood how a lump of metal could form a "habit"

 

[Iron Horse]

It sounds to me like the emergency over run stop is closed . If it had a bit of a rev when they used the Either , the flap would have closed . It will do as you are saying if it is closed , it is a simple matter to re-set it .

 

[2109 Stang]

I use a rag soaked in gasoline ,put it by the intake, make sure it won't suck it in, a lot safer than ether and never fails.

 

[AtlasRob]

make sure it won't suck it in, a lot safer than ether

:dizzy knowing the average machine pilot, I dont see that petrol ( gasoline ) a naked flame and expecting them to work out the necessary calculations
(considering wind speed, direction etc) to be a lot safer than ether. Never mind the risk of trying to a) locate and b) position said stake.

but its another trick I just learned :notworthy

 

[willie59]

As was stated in a previous post, just a leetle shot of ether to give a machine a kick to start it...I don't have a problem with that. The situation I don't like ether is spraying for an extended period, like getting an engine going when someone has run it out of fuel and it takes some cranking to purge the air from everything, when doing this the ether is washing all the oil film from the cylinders and the rings are scraping away on them. In this case, I have used a trigger spray bottle, like a plastic window cleaner bottle. Clean the bottle out good and put some diesel in it. Remove intake piping as close as you can get to intake manifold. Spray the diesel mist into the intake while cranking. It helps keep the starter from laboring so hard to purge the air and is keeping lubrication on the cylinder walls.

 

[TALLRICK]

My method of choice is to mix diesel and gasoline in a pressure-feed paint spray gun and shoot it down the intake while cranking. When the bobcat would sit idle for a month or more, that was the quickest way to get it going again.

 

[Willis Bushogin]

Drott 40 (45?) Cruz Air Rubber Mount excavator.
Looks pretty much like this picture but I thought it is a '45.
I am pretty sure it has a Detroit Diesel engine in it.
They say it does run.

I was told that sometime somebody trying to start the engine used "too much ether".
It wasn't me. Really. :tong
Apparently they did get it started.

Now it 'sucks oil up from the crankcase when you try to shut it down'.
Maybe they even said it was hard to get it to shut down. ??

Can somebody try to explain to me what happened?? :beatsme
...how to FIX it? Tear down?

Ive had or operated Detroits for 25 years, if you need starting fluid, its worn out. If its wants to suck oil out of the base, as someone said, the blower seals are shot and you dont want to go there. It probrably has a 4-71 in it and there are lots of new and used parts for this engine. I bought a Drott 40D about 5 years ago and had to replace the engine (block cracked) IF you do buy another engine, do some research first. Just because its a 4-71, doesnt mean it will work, I think there are 4 different applications for this engine
1. RH engine CW rotation
2. RH engine CCW rotation
3. LH engine CW rotation
4. LH engine CCW rotation

If you dont have the old school detroit experience, I wouldnt attempt working on it. A 71/53 series detroit has a problem running away, if the governor and rack is not set correctly. (been there done that, not pretty) Find a older mechanic in your area, he probrably worked on it. A friend of mine has two that came out of a Drott, Im not sure what he wants for them, or the condition (he is in NC)
Good Luck