So I lost my ass for the first time on a job...

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I got a call to do 800ft of trench in downtown jersey city and set 2 small manholes. I thought it would be money in the bank as I was going to show up with another crew, all together we had 12 laborers, 2 air compressors, 4 jackhammers, a Cat 430, a Case 580, triaxle dump truck, 2 air compressors and a utility truck.

Well the road surface was 24in thick, on top of 4 inches of concrete, and there was even solid bed rock in some places. We were averaging about 60 feet per day, when I was expecting to do 400+. I have work lined up for next week that I can make back my money. After this job I really want to move into residential contracting........

Ok I may be only 30 odd years+ at this and it appears I missed something, the cut is a disgrace enough said. Why do you need 12 laborers? :beatsme:beatsme
Nice to see you are an optimist 121mts a day in a city area,even over here where we would not have that many people in an urban area and I would hope for maybe 50mts on average with a different equipment set up.
If materials have increased in price then my good man increase your rates,If you had stayed at home and not done that job you now would be up money and still have the small other work to do.
Now don't get me wrong take work from this GC but do so to make money for you not to be a nice guy or because you feel he owes you or you him, remember you can go broke with out having to work at it.
I heard it said that " in business there are no nice guys " and if you fail he will bitchslap some other poor subbie out of business.

Finally NEVER EVER EVER do a deal on a hand shake for equipment or work,it not worth the paper it is written on.who is to say that the amount was with or without sales tax, or that he can only take a certain % of each cheque, or what is to stop him from continuing to take money after the amount is paid for hire for the vehicle etc.Even if it is only a hand written document as long as both sign it the rules cannot be changed and that goes for work as well.

 

[swampdog]

Aliate, It's good to see an open discussion on this topic. My question is: what would the GC say if he saw this discussed in an open forum? Maybe he would take your concerns seriously and pay more. Or maybe you would experience freedom sooner than you hoped for?

 

[diggerdave1958]

Well i hope all is going better for u now, Aliate, I have a question for u about the "No extras" on the job, in excavating the are always unforeseen conditons that can change in 5' and i think u could have gotten a change order or a force account for the extra work that was above plan. just saying.
Take care and i am sure u will do fine.
Diggerdave

 

[Hendrik]

Kind of a sad tale but before we all jump on the kid lets consider that he is trying to build a business out of nothing. Sure there are things he has done wrong but he is learning and is willing to share his experience with us. I betcha a lot of those who are jumping on him have made mistakes they would rather forget, let alone share with others.
Anyway I can't offer any advice in this situation as I do not know all the laws involved but I hope you can get away from the situation and get paid a fair rate.

 

[Squizzy246B]

Old earthmovers saying:

"let he who has not screwed up a bid and done his dough, throw the first stone"

Lol

 

[JS580SL]

Im 21, I give him credit for taking this job on by himself at a young age to. We all have to learn some how.

Laying 6-8inch gas we try to shoot for 200-280ft a day in a busy area. Many times we end up with less due to ledge, other utilities, etc. Sometimes push 300ft if all goes well. With 2 inch that comes in roles we dig about half the day with a bobcat sanding and backfilling. Once a certain point Ill take over with the backhoe and finish the backfilling and get ready to patch or plate the street.

Short runs we have a saw come in. Longer stretches say 1,000ft or more or busy roads we have a track vermeer or tigercat machine come in. With saw cut hot top I never break it first, just peel it first thing get a load right on the truck and send him off.

 

[Aliate]

yeah we have a vermeer wheel machine, well the GC does, but it was in the shop. I appreciate all the advice like hendrik said I AM building this from nothing, I bought my first truck and the only tools I had to put in it was the shovels out of my parents shed. Now Ive ran out of room in the truck.

 

[NEConstruction]

Aliate,
It is impossible for him to expect you to do the work for the same price if Asphalt prices have increased that much. I work for a GC and we subcontract out all of our trucking for an hourly rate. In 2008 some of our truckers came in and asked for a meeting to discuss their rate. Gas price had risen to $4 a gallon and it was financially impossible for them to continue at this rate. Basically every hour they worked, they lost money. We renegotiated to a better rate for them and that was it. In 2009 when prices went back down I called them all in and told them I was cutting their rate. They did not fight me on it. I gave them a rate increase when prices went up and I expect that when prices go down they will give me a rate decrease.

I guess the reason I told you that incredibly boring story is that I would ask your GC to sit down and explain to him in a meeting that you cannot do the work for $30 a foot with asphalt prices the way they are. Additionally, let him know that you need to be able to get paid extra when conditions could not reasonably have been figured into your estimate. He is bullying you because he has a lot of the power in the relationship. However, it also sounds like you might be letting him bully you. Right now you are a company owner. As that owner I would demand a meeting and go to that meeting prepared (build yourself a case) for a discussion on why I deserve more money. You need to represent your company. No one is going to do it for you. You are young but it is time to grow as a businessman. If you do this, you might be surprised at the result.

 

[stumpjumper83]

Well put advise

 

[Aliate]

Aliate,
It is impossible for him to expect you to do the work for the same price if Asphalt prices have increased that much. I work for a GC and we subcontract out all of our trucking for an hourly rate. In 2008 some of our truckers came in and asked for a meeting to discuss their rate. Gas price had risen to $4 a gallon and it was financially impossible for them to continue at this rate. Basically every hour they worked, they lost money. We renegotiated to a better rate for them and that was it. In 2009 when prices went back down I called them all in and told them I was cutting their rate. They did not fight me on it. I gave them a rate increase when prices went up and I expect that when prices go down they will give me a rate decrease.

I guess the reason I told you that incredibly boring story is that I would ask your GC to sit down and explain to him in a meeting that you cannot do the work for $30 a foot with asphalt prices the way they are. Additionally, let him know that you need to be able to get paid extra when conditions could not reasonably have been figured into your estimate. He is bullying you because he has a lot of the power in the relationship. However, it also sounds like you might be letting him bully you. Right now you are a company owner. As that owner I would demand a meeting and go to that meeting prepared (build yourself a case) for a discussion on why I deserve more money. You need to represent your company. No one is going to do it for you. You are young but it is time to grow as a businessman. If you do this, you might be surprised at the result.

yeah it is good advice, if he throws another trench my way Ill be sure to talk to him about it. The problem is like I said before I dont exactly bid on the job, he just calls me up and says I have this, be here at this time and thats it. I almost feel like an employee in some way. I know I dont have a lot of power in this relationship and I am working to change that, by getting a second source of work, I cant just have one person being my only source of business. I think once I have the ability to pick and choose what work I do with my current GC, things will change.

 

[Speedpup]

yeah it is good advice, if he throws another trench my way Ill be sure to talk to him about it. The problem is like I said before I dont exactly bid on the job, he just calls me up and says I have this, be here at this time and thats it. I almost feel like an employee in some way. I know I dont have a lot of power in this relationship and I am working to change that, by getting a second source of work, I cant just have one person being my only source of business. I think once I have the ability to pick and choose what work I do with my current GC, things will change.

If you are doing that tell him you will give daily rates. He wants you to have all the problems and risk with no reward. otherwise you may be better off being an employee. Write your agreements even if it day hire and make him sigm acceptance of the work daily.

When I do masonry jobs if i don't know the price of the brick or material I use an allowance of say 600 per thousand delivered and unloaded by others. Sometimes things have shot up and I eat it like copper flashing and rebar so I eat it. If the cost of you material doubles in something like paving you can be in real trouble.

With the price of steel going crazy the kast few years all the steel contracts have a price per ton written in them.

 

[diggerman57]

I won't give you bidding advice because that's not my area of expertise. But I can explain how I've tackled this type of work in the past from my operating perspective. First off, assuming the trench is to be 3' deep, I would make sure all the utilities have been marked, and I'll put cones out to remind me where any overhead obstructions are. Then I'll strip the asphalt off and load it directly onto the truck. If you put it on the ground you'll have to move it twice, which means more time (money) wasted. As I uncover the road base I'll scratch down a little where any existing utilities cross the path of my trench, so that as I keep stripping the asphalt the laborers can expose the utilities by hand. When the truck is full and goes to dump I'll go back and start opening up the trench. By that time usually most of the utilities have been exposed by hand so the process will go faster because I'll be able to see where everything is. I'll leave my windrow out about 3' and keep it low,so when it comes time to sand the trench I can straddle the windrow without getting material in the drive-train of the machine. When the truck comes back with a load of sand, we'll dump it,and I'll get a scoop with my side-dump bucket go back, and straddle the windrow and drive ahead as I sand the bottom of the trench evenly. When I finish sanding the bottom of the trench I'll turn around and straddle the trench, put my back bucket flat in the trench with the teeth curled up slightly, and drive ahead while the back bucket smooths and flattens the trench bottom. After I do that the laborers will put in the pipe. Then I'll repeat the sanding process, then compaction, then the caution tape. To finish I'll angle my side-dump bucket like a dozer-blade, and push the windrow back in the trench, and load any extra into the truck. I'll go back after i fill the truck and grade the trench with the back bucket to get it ready for asphalt when the truck comes back with the asphalt the laborers will wheel-barrel the mix and I'll clean up anything leftover and start preparing for the next day. I don't know if you were looking for step by step instructions, but I think that reading this may give you some insight into different ways to tackle a project like this from my operating point of view.

 

[Aliate]

Yeah it is nice to see it from the operators point of view, thats the way I wanted to do it, stripping the asphalt first, but the other crew was saying oh well just grab it after, of course it made a big mess afterwards.

 

[excav8r]

That is a good idea to keep the windrow a few feet out. sounds like your system is pretty efficient. your laborers must love you.

 

[diggerman57]

Thanks for the compliment excav8r. Some of it is trial and error, but mostly it's learning from the old timers. Though I'm always open to try something new.

It makes a big difference when you have a good system down. I try to make it easy on my laborers, and in turn, their always making life easier for me. Now and again I'll get a s***bum laborer and I'll make him shovel more than he has to. But I always remember my machine powers through hydraulics theirs powers through blood.

Hope you didn't mind the soapbox rant.

 

[RobVG]

Probably a dumb question but does anyone use ground penetrating radar to bid jobs? It should show steel plate and give depth of pavement/concrete. Saw some rentals on the web.

 

[topdigger]

This is a good read. I'm new to the forum but it sounds to me like when the GC calls you need to tell him you want all the specs and the address and you need to go and inspect the site and have a one call locate done before you agree to a price, and include a unforseen circimstaces clause in your bid. Also you said that you rented a backhoe if you can rent a hoe you should be just as easy to rent a mini with a thumb and breaker to dig with? Was the other hoe the GC's ? Were all those laborors yours that you were paying , if so why so many? Can you go to the bank or someone and get the money to finish paying for the dump truck? Also sounds like you need to consult your dad on some of the bidding and contracting issues since he has some experience in that. I think you can go to a office supply store and purchase a standard form of agreement documents that might work well for you also?

 

[diggerdave1958]

I would also say the next time the GC call U go to the local DPW and ask them what the street is like i am sure they have dug in the same area that u where digging in and should have a idea of what the conditions are. Also if there is a inspector there what he think of the conditions ???
Hope this may help the next time.

 

[topdigger]

good advice diggerdave1958

 

[dynahoescott]

Hey Aliate, I passed by your job today and it is finished. The saw cutting is a digrace, you were totally right about that, and like I said before your job started at the corner that I ripped up about 2 years earlier I am surprised they let you work there during daylight hours.:drinkup