shortage of workers?

[check]

I apologize for contributing to the thread drift, but the main purpose of electronics on heavy equipment is planned in obsolescence. Much of the complexity is not needed for safe and environmentally clean operation. Complexity often has a motive and in this case the primary motive is to give the banker/manufacturer/dealer more control over their customers, not to give customers more control over their purchases. They seem to want to have every customer financing every piece of equipment for X number of years after which it becomes no longer feasible to keep it in operation (as soon as it's paid off).

It isn't analytical genius that enables mechanics to solve electronic problems on machinery, it is memorized knowledge, memorized information, memorized procedures which in many cases are not accessible to mechanics outside of dealerships. Analytical process and logic stops at sealed modules, unless you are one of the very small percentage of techs who grinds the epoxy off the module and tests the diodes and capacitors etc to trace down the mysterious circuitry.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I guess one thing about this relating to workers tends to be the frustration factor. It is really satisfying to take a broken down machine and figure out the problem and send it on its way with confidence. Replacing thousand dollar modules and having the problem recur intermittently is a recipe for ulcers.

 

[Bumpsteer]

Birken, you nailed it.

One see's a broken or worn part, it gets replaced. The cylinder doesn't leak, the sprocket doesn't slip.

Replace an electronic part, one just doesn't know how long it'll be before it comes back to haunt you.

Ed

 

[Dutchcat]

Maybe a bit off topic( or not) but how is the market for self employed heavyequipment mechanics in the states, here in the Netherlands most bigger clients go to a dealership, and the smaller ones, with one or two machines are more of the diy types, with not Much in between for self employed mechanics


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[lantraxco]

In my view a good mechanic with a service truck can easily work himself to death here with the exception of the economic slumps we see like the one that started in 2008. If it doesn't get too far down the lone wolf gets more business because owners can't afford dealer charges. The only problem with being a lone road warrior is you can only earn as much as the hours you can work, it rarely if ever turns into a larger operation.

 

[movindirt]

In my view a good mechanic with a service truck can easily work himself to death here with the exception of the economic slumps we see like the one that started in 2008. If it doesn't get too far down the lone wolf gets more business because owners can't afford dealer charges. The only problem with being a lone road warrior is you can only earn as much as the hours you can work, it rarely if ever turns into a larger operation.

I have a friend who is a plumber who is the same way, he can work out of a cargo van and work as many hours as he can, he is almost always 2 or 3 weeks out on work, but the problem is that to grow he then has the expense in another vehicle, tools, not to mention a good worker. I knew a guy that just got out of the rooter business that I wanted to buy from him, its not great work :shf but when someone's crap isn't flowing they aren't worried about spending money to fix it, no matter if the economy is good or bad people still need to use the bathroom

 

[Dutchcat]

And how are foreigners looked upon by other self employers, not the Guys from south America but from across the pond


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[lantraxco]

And how are foreigners looked upon by other self employers, not the Guys from south America but from across the pond


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I would venture to say Brits and Scandinavians including Danish and Dutch more than welcome, French and German not so much maybe and Slavs and Russians have not given good impressions here. It will vary by region I think though. Just my impression of things.

 

[Dutchcat]

I think it is the same the other way around, somehow these counteries Dont see eachother as a threat. Here in the Netherlands most of the workingclass cant stand the eastern Europe laborers, they work for lower wages, mostly produce less quality and live by lower life standards usually cannot even propper communicate with us.
But for Some employers only the money counts especially their profit


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[Buckethead]

People just don't want to work with their hands any more.IMO. Ambition levels are pretty low these days. Desk jobs are what it's all about for most people.
Plus getting dirty in a job is definitely not in most young people minds. Jobs these days are all about recognition not

There have always been some lazy people, but I think it's more that schools forcefully discourage young people from working in the trades. That was certainly true when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s and it's true now. I was made to feel like some kind of freak for saying I wanted to be an operator when I grew up. The disapproval of teachers and other authority figures was pretty destructive to my self confidence. I am glad I didn't listen to them and followed my dreams, I am doing alright.

 

[Truck Shop]

There have always been some lazy people, but I think it's more that schools forcefully discourage young people from working in the trades. That was certainly true when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s and it's true now. I was made to feel like some kind of freak for saying I wanted to be an operator when I grew up. The disapproval of teachers and other authority figures was pretty destructive to my self confidence. I am glad I didn't listen to them and followed my dreams, I am doing alright.

I will go one further. A family friend got a teaching job in the early 90's on Bainbridge Island {rich snobs** teaching what was then called power shop. There were no
tools of any kind or books/manuals in the shop area just seven desks in a class room. He had two students. When he took lunch in the teacher break room he asked
What's up with the wood and power shop classes. He told me one of the teachers turned and looked his way with a frown and told him under their breath. You don't
realize where you are this is island of the rich, these moms and dads don't want their child's hands getting dirty so the school puts no money in that program.

Truck Shop

 

[Buckethead]

I will go one further. A family friend got a teaching job in the early 90's on Bainbridge Island {rich snobs** teaching what was then called power shop. There were no
tools of any kind or books/manuals in the shop area just seven desks in a class room. He had two students. When he took lunch in the teacher break room he asked
What's up with the wood and power shop classes. He told me one of the teachers turned and looked his way with a frown and told him under their breath. You don't
realize where you are this is island of the rich, these moms and dads don't want their child's hands getting dirty so the school puts no money in that program.

Truck Shop

How ridiculous? And sad! It's good for kids to learn a lot of different things to be a well rounded person. Taking shop class doesn't mean you will work as a carpenter or welder, it's just another thing to learn about. Who knows, some of them may discover a talent they didn't know they had.

 

[td25c]

There have always been some lazy people, but I think it's more that schools forcefully discourage young people from working in the trades. That was certainly true when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s and it's true now. I was made to feel like some kind of freak for saying I wanted to be an operator when I grew up. The disapproval of teachers and other authority figures was pretty destructive to my self confidence. I am glad I didn't listen to them and followed my dreams, I am doing alright.

That brings back some memories Buckethead .

My high school teachers looked down on the trades & farming . In there high education they thought food came from the grocery store , wood products came from the lumber yard , and dirt got moved by people that didn't get the teaching job . LOL !

I was fortunate getting a part time job at 16 working for a farmer / dirt contractor . Really loved it !

Leaned a lot from him past it on to my boy .

Even the foot ball coach tried to derail me ...... Gave me the lame ass speech " you should be playing on the team instead of working " .

Why would I want to get ordered around to chase a ball up & down a field when I could get paid some cash after school to run farm equipment & yellow iron ?

It was an easy decision .

No regrets Man !

 

[catwelder]

I will go one further. A family friend got a teaching job in the early 90's on Bainbridge Island {rich snobs** teaching what was then called power shop. There were no
tools of any kind or books/manuals in the shop area just seven desks in a class room. He had two students. When he took lunch in the teacher break room he asked
What's up with the wood and power shop classes. He told me one of the teachers turned and looked his way with a frown and told him under their breath. You don't
realize where you are this is island of the rich, these moms and dads don't want their child's hands getting dirty so the school puts no money in that program.

Truck Shop

I've never been up north but where I'm at you have more getting dirty jobs then clean jobs and I'm happy about that because I had a choice of how I wanted to get dirty instead of there only being a few number of places

 

[Truck Shop]

I've never been up north but where I'm at you have more getting dirty jobs then clean jobs and I'm happy about that because I had a choice of how I wanted to get dirty instead of there only being a few number of places

I grew up working a dirty job, folks had a dairy. We milked 110 of Jersey's in a nine stall barn with vacuum buckets. Two times a day seven days a week all year long.
I was shoveling sh!$ at five years old. I'm 61 now and still shoveling sh!$ from the boss working as a mechanic for the last 44 years.

Truck Shop

 

[GapPowerWilly]

Birken, you nailed it.

One see's a broken or worn part, it gets replaced. The cylinder doesn't leak, the sprocket doesn't slip.

Replace an electronic part, one just doesn't know how long it'll be before it comes back to haunt you.

Ed

Well............not so sure electronics are all that difficult. We have to keep a lot of very new equipment up and running. Now keep in mind we are not dealers for heavy iron, we just rent it out so the manufacturers don't give us access to stuff the same as dealers. We hardly ever take any machine to a dealer and the key to that is we are trained to understand electronics. Not even by the mfr. or dealer but by a real dedicated guy who knows the stuff inside and out. A diode is a diode, a step motor is a step motor, a schematic is always a schematic you just have to know how to read it.............and make sure you check the basics. Many a tech guy lost a day because he did not bother or did not know how to check ground in the troubleshooting process. How many guys out there know how to find a weak wire in a bundle? Hey, if I can do it anybody can. Had 8 grades and HS by mail but never stopped learning this fun stuff and the guys I work with, all under 30 are incredible because they majored in learning this electronic stuff. Even at 22 years old they have no problem with big guys breathing down their necks while they patiently troubleshoot an electrical problem out on a job-site. The temptation, and the expectation is that he will start swapping out electronic parts......no-no-no that is so old school so Bubba you chill while I figure this out. Yeah you can get some knowledge by learning this stuff the hard way if you are OK w/ 40K a year. If you want 1.5 -2x that get the training. Many sources out there, we use this guy and have for a decade or so.........do a YOU TUBE search for this Dan Sullivan, Fundamental Electrical Troubleshooting

 

[check]

Well............not so sure electronics are all that difficult. We have to keep a lot of very new equipment up and running. Now keep in mind we are not dealers for heavy iron, we just rent it out so the manufacturers don't give us access to stuff the same as dealers. We hardly ever take any machine to a dealer and the key to that is we are trained to understand electronics. Not even by the mfr. or dealer but by a real dedicated guy who knows the stuff inside and out. A diode is a diode, a step motor is a step motor, a schematic is always a schematic you just have to know how to read it.............and make sure you check the basics. Many a tech guy lost a day because he did not bother or did not know how to check ground in the troubleshooting process. How many guys out there know how to find a weak wire in a bundle? Hey, if I can do it anybody can. Had 8 grades and HS by mail but never stopped learning this fun stuff and the guys I work with, all under 30 are incredible because they majored in learning this electronic stuff. Even at 22 years old they have no problem with big guys breathing down their necks while they patiently troubleshoot an electrical problem out on a job-site. The temptation, and the expectation is that he will start swapping out electronic parts......no-no-no that is so old school so Bubba you chill while I figure this out. Yeah you can get some knowledge by learning this stuff the hard way if you are OK w/ 40K a year. If you want 1.5 -2x that get the training. Many sources out there, we use this guy and have for a decade or so.........do a YOU TUBE search for this Dan Sullivan, Fundamental Electrical Troubleshooting

Diagnosing electrical and electronic problems are two entirely different games. A logical mind with minimal background in electricity can solve electrical problems all day long. Not so with electronics.

 

[hetkind]

Just like you need the correct wrenches for nuts and bolts, you also need the correct tools to troubleshoot electrical parts and electronics, like proper test points so you don't tear up a good harness, and technical data that gives good input and output parameters for actuators, motors, and sensors.

I will always visit the harness room of every plant I go to, it will give you a wonderful idea of just how they are made, the quality that goes into them and the probably failure points, with the biggest one being flex and fatigue.

Howard

 

[check]

Just like you need the correct wrenches for nuts and bolts, you also need the correct tools to troubleshoot electrical parts and electronics, like proper test points so you don't tear up a good harness, and technical data that gives good input and output parameters for actuators, motors, and sensors.

Providing customers with good technical data and specialized electronic test instruments to unveil the secrets contained in sealed modules is something that the manufacturer/dealer does at their own option. IOW, they can either selectively provide it only to deep-pocketed customers, charge exorbitant rates for it, provide very poor technical data, or simply not provide it. All of these amount to the same thing;planned in obsolescence and the dealer/manufacturer having more control over their customers. In my experience working on aged equipment and not spending the money to have any clout with dealers, the independent mechanic's inability to solve these electronic malfunctions often stems from the fact that the dealer/manufacturer does not want him to.

 

[kshansen]

Providing customers with good technical data and specialized electronic test instruments to unveil the secrets contained in sealed modules is something that the manufacturer/dealer does at their own option. IOW, they can either selectively provide it only to deep-pocketed customers, charge exorbitant rates for it, provide very poor technical data, or simply not provide it. All of these amount to the same thing;planned in obsolescence and the dealer/manufacturer having more control over their customers. In my experience working on aged equipment and not spending the money to have any clout with dealers, the independent mechanic's inability to solve these electronic malfunctions often stems from the fact that the dealer/manufacturer does not want him to.

Then sometimes even the dealers for a major manufacture do not have the full story on how or why things happen.

Like the problem I dealt with trying to diagnose a trouble warning that a trans. filter was plugged on a front end loader. After literally working on it for months, not full time but when ever the machine was acting up or in shop for other work. Eliminated everything right up to the module that had the warning light in it. Dealer's main tech felt that the module was the only likely thing that could be causing this problem. He suggested I try to either find a "good" used one to stick in or just replace it with new. Due to cost I could not bring myself to talk the boss in to replacing it. That ended up being the right choice as more or less by accident I stumbled on the real problem. Never could get anyone to explain how come a trans. temp. sender would cause a module to light up a "plugged filter" warning light. Maybe it was some "error" in the program of this module, but how can someone be expected to see things that deep in a system? It also did not help that this was an intermittent problem, might goes days without a warning light coming on.