Question owning/operating crane

[GrainBinMan]

I just found out that we have the green light for a project that will take a fair amount of crane time. About 20 days out of the 35 day project length. With our type of work, we need a crane for about 3 hours in a day, then we don't need him again until the next day. Or we may need him for an hour, then we'll need him for 2 hours later in the day. That 20 days is figuring 6 hours a day.

It is a lot of work 40' - 80' above grade, anywhere from 500 to 5,000 pound. The biggest issue that we may run into is radius. It is going to be about a 50' radius. And this is another question: There is an office building between where the crane would have to sit and where we would be working. What would you do about that office building? We have never yet dropped anything that high (I cut some straps on a piece of equipment when we had it about 2' off the ground). It's a working feed mill, so they can't really shut totally down. Do we just tell the secretary to get out while we are making lifts? Is it practical to cover the roof with something?

There is no shortage of crane services around. I'm just trying to decide if I can justify buying a crane, then selling it when we are finished the project. Right now, I don't have the cash cushion to hang onto it and keep making payments if it is not running, and I don't really have a man to put in it as a full time operator.

Thanks for any advice ya'll have.

 

[fast_st]

I'm thinking local regs will come into play, some places say that if the load is over x number of pounds, you have to evac the first floor below the path of the lift. See if you can lease one for a month? Sounds like you are working up a good plan where possibly you can have a crane 2 solid days a week?

 

[crane operator]

I run a small crane rental outfit (5 cranes 25-70 ton), but I used to build legs/ grain bins in Iowa. When I purchase a crane, I figure it takes me 6 months to a year to get all the little leaks/ problems / misc stuff sorted out from the used cranes that I buy. I purchased a 40 ton RT in January, its a 1992 (my newest crane) and I've spent probably another $2,500-3000 in parts and my own labor working on it. It was a really good used unit from a large rental outfit straight off a job. Some used stuff requires much more work/ money. My 70 ton crane lost its computer (LMI) board 4 months after I bought it- $4500 just for the board-and you can't run it till its fixed. I do all my own repairs and it takes time. I've got spare time between jobs to work on the cranes. I'm assuming your more interested in building the mill than working on a crane.

If your project was bid, and you figured in renting the crane with operator, you could probably bare rent a RT crane from ALL/ Central/Maxim, for a month (examples, there's other dealers) for less than the rental with operator. Then its there when you need it, if your ready at 2:00 to set another downspout, you set it, you don't have to wait until 10:00 the next day when the crane can show up. You can unload trucks. build the towers/ catwalks with it, its handy. If the crane quits working, you get on the phone and tell them to fix it or bring you another one.

The nice thing about renting with operator is they bring all the skills, rigging, and insurance. If something falls on the office, you can point fingers in another direction. Bigger crane for the bigger stuff, just a small crane for the small stuff. You do what you do best, building the mill, leaving the operating to the experts.

That said, if your within 50' and 5,000lbs (I'm assuming the head or the tower for the leg), a 30-50 ton RT would do all you need. If your familiar with cranes I'd recommend a bare rental. I rarely work jobs over 3 weeks in duration, because if they need a crane that much, they own a crane, or bare rent. Make sure to talk to your insurance man, because the bare rental company will have you insure for replacement cost, and they usually bring pretty nice cranes.

If you don't plan on keeping the crane after this job, the risk of big $ repairs (engine, trans, pumps, tele-cylinder leaking, computer, etc) I think would be too great. If any of those , or other items go, you have to fix it in order to do the work, or you still have to hire someone else to come in and help with the job. If you can use the rental amount to help pay for a crane that you plan to keep, then you can justify the repairs.

 

[Knepptune]

If you have a guy that can operate the cheapest route by far would be a monthly bare rental. Around here it's loosely based around $125-140 per ton ie. a 30 ton crane is gonna be around 3500-4000 a month. You could easily do that work with a 30 hydro.

If your still thinking you want a crane it'd be a great opportunity for a trial. Find one that's for sale, tell them you want to rent it for a month. At the end of that month you'll have a pretty good idea of what your getting.

 

[td25c]

Sounds like a nice job GrainBinMan .

What I've done in the past for customers with similar need is just dedicate one rig to the job until they are finished . About like a rental company only I show up to operate when needed . Bill them for hours used .

Last crew I did that for was short handed so on some days they even let me weld and bolt & run forklift

Might ask around some of the local crane guys might do the same . Wish I were closer , I really enjoy that type of work .

Probably not a bad idea to have the secretary elsewhere during a critical lift . Main thing is do everything possible to prevent something falling , loose wrench / hardware left on the load . Double check that stuff :yup

Good luck with it .

 

[old-iron-habit]

OSHA requires that you keep your load path clear. A lot harder to do in the real world but I would have her relocate during the picks over her. She probably wants to watch and take pictures anyway

 

[GrainBinMan]

Sounds like you are working up a good plan where possibly you can have a crane 2 solid days a week?

Yes, that is what we've done in the past, get as much ready as possible, then call the crane and work him for several hours.

 

[GrainBinMan]

I run a small crane rental outfit (5 cranes 25-70 ton), but I used to build legs/ grain bins in Iowa. When I purchase a crane, I figure it takes me 6 months to a year to get all the little leaks/ problems / misc stuff sorted out from the used cranes that I buy. I purchased a 40 ton RT in January, its a 1992 (my newest crane) and I've spent probably another $2,500-3000 in parts and my own labor working on it. It was a really good used unit from a large rental outfit straight off a job. Some used stuff requires much more work/ money. My 70 ton crane lost its computer (LMI) board 4 months after I bought it- $4500 just for the board-and you can't run it till its fixed. I do all my own repairs and it takes time. I've got spare time between jobs to work on the cranes. I'm assuming your more interested in building the mill than working on a crane.

The local crane sales company has two rigs they would like to sell me that should do everything but the very heaviest pick.

If your project was bid, and you figured in renting the crane with operator, you could probably bare rent a RT crane from ALL/ Central/Maxim, for a month (examples, there's other dealers) for less than the rental with operator. Then its there when you need it, if your ready at 2:00 to set another downspout, you set it, you don't have to wait until 10:00 the next day when the crane can show up. You can unload trucks. build the towers/ catwalks with it, its handy. If the crane quits working, you get on the phone and tell them to fix it or bring you another one.

The nice thing about renting with operator is they bring all the skills, rigging, and insurance. If something falls on the office, you can point fingers in another direction. Bigger crane for the bigger stuff, just a small crane for the small stuff. You do what you do best, building the mill, leaving the operating to the experts.

That said, if your within 50' and 5,000lbs (I'm assuming the head or the tower for the leg), a 30-50 ton RT would do all you need. If your familiar with cranes I'd recommend a bare rental. I rarely work jobs over 3 weeks in duration, because if they need a crane that much, they own a crane, or bare rent. Make sure to talk to your insurance man, because the bare rental company will have you insure for replacement cost, and they usually bring pretty nice cranes.

I think the insurance is going to be a killer.

If you don't plan on keeping the crane after this job, the risk of big $ repairs (engine, trans, pumps, tele-cylinder leaking, computer, etc) I think would be too great. If any of those , or other items go, you have to fix it in order to do the work, or you still have to hire someone else to come in and help with the job. If you can use the rental amount to help pay for a crane that you plan to keep, then you can justify the repairs.

The two rigs I mentioned above are supposed to be totally gone across and ready to roll.

 

[GrainBinMan]

If you have a guy that can operate the cheapest route by far would be a monthly bare rental. Around here it's loosely based around $125-140 per ton ie. a 30 ton crane is gonna be around 3500-4000 a month. You could easily do that work with a 30 hydro.

If your still thinking you want a crane it'd be a great opportunity for a trial. Find one that's for sale, tell them you want to rent it for a month. At the end of that month you'll have a pretty good idea of what your getting.

That's another hitch. At this point I don't have a certified operator on my crew.

I may be able to arrange a 'lease to buy' option with the two rigs my local crane sales company has.

 

[GrainBinMan]

Sounds like a nice job GrainBinMan .

What I've done in the past for customers with similar need is just dedicate one rig to the job until they are finished . About like a rental company only I show up to operate when needed . Bill them for hours used .

Last crew I did that for was short handed so on some days they even let me weld and bolt & run forklift

Might ask around some of the local crane guys might do the same . Wish I were closer , I really enjoy that type of work .

Probably not a bad idea to have the secretary elsewhere during a critical lift . Main thing is do everything possible to prevent something falling , loose wrench / hardware left on the load . Double check that stuff :yup

Good luck with it .

You're not looking to re-locate for a month? I am looking for another hand on the millwright crew.

 

[GrainBinMan]

There is crane service company within a mile of this project. We've used them before and they were always accommodating to our schedule. My plan is to talk to them when I get back there to finalize some details.


Thank you all for the input.

 

[Buckethead]

That's another hitch. At this point I don't have a certified operator on my crew.

I would rent a rig with operator. Have the crane company person come out and see what you're going to pick, they'll know what size you need. (Without being too big to fit the site) Renting is a good way to go, so you get just the right size crane for each job. Hope this helps.

 

[td25c]

You're not looking to re-locate for a month? I am looking for another hand on the millwright crew.

Sure appreciate the invite , that would be like a paid vacation

If local crane service is within a mile from the project that will be your best bet . Go have a walk & talk with them and I'm sure they will try to take care of the project one way or another .

Out of curiosity what models are you looking at on the " lease to buy " option at the crane sales company ?


Thought about your thread this morning while unloading some new chemical tanks at a factory .

Life is short , may as well have the equipment you need to do the job at hand .

 

[GrainBinMan]

2003 National 14110, 110' main, 2-pc jib, swing cab, on a Peterbilt 330; 3126 Cat; 8LL trans; 103k miles 11k engine hours; 7,150 crane hours; OSHA crane cert. in Feb 2016; $125,000 +/-


2008 Manitex 30102SX, 102' main, no jib, on a 2007 Pete 357, pre-emmission engine (not sure which one, Cat maybe), $140,000

 

[crane operator]

Sorry, they're trying to sell you boom trucks, not cranes. That said, I prefer National, unfortunately that one has a 3126, not known as a great motor. I wouldn't spend that much on either for a one month project, hoping to sell them when the job is done.

I'm close to the current oilfield slow down, crane prices are down (real cranes). I would think a investment in a $50-80,000 crane, would have as good of a chance of finishing the job, without the loss of value that comes with the newer equipment. When I talk of real cranes, I mean dedicated truck carriers (think grove tms 750, terex 340, link belt htc 8060), or Rt series,(grove rt700, link belt rtc 8050, terex rt 230-450). The real world capacity of a 40 ton truck crane vs a 40 ton boom truck is noticable.

If I was spending 125-140,000, neither of those would be on my list. My cranes are

1977 Grove tms 250 20 ton
1978 Grove tms 250 25 ton
1976 Grove tms 300 35 ton
1992 Grove rt 740 40 ton
1987 P&H T650 70 ton

Very seldom do more than 3 go out on any given day, but they all could go out on Monday morning. The 200-250's chart with newer terex 340's. The tms 300 charts with new 50 ton cranes ( in most places out picking my 40ton rt). If I had only one crane, it would be the tms 300. I've set 50,000lb lp tanks one day, 500lb air units at 120' radius the next day. That said, I use the two 25's more, they're faster and will get into a much smaller/ steeper spot. The 70 ton I can bill more for, but in real life it doesn't do that much more than my tms 300 will.

If I went from a one month job, to a two month job, to a 3 week job, (not daily jobs), a 40-60 ton rt would be my choice. Its a pain for me in daily jobs because I still have to have someone else with a lowboy move it (longer term work spreads that cost out). We use it for places we can't get the truck cranes into because of terrain. Most construction company's with their own crane on monthly jobs own a rt, they have the advantage of a 360degree chart, compact carrier, and mud and compact sites don't slow you down as much.



Notice no boom trucks in my list? Upside of boom trucks: 65mph down the road, ride nice, 95'-140' of main in newer ones, any truck dealer/ mechanic will work on your carrier, no tail swing on most, quick set up on most, user friendly for inexperienced operators.

Down sides: Wide outrigger spans, 24-26' in a 30 ton package doesn't sound that bad, but my 25 ton fits in 20'.

Too short of outrigger jacks/ or under powered jacks. A 30 ton National will barely get its tires off the ground in a flat parking lot with no cribbing. Now factor in a 4' fall in 25' span of outriggers (not unusual in my area) and your bringing with you a pile of wood and your having to use it. A 28 ton Pioneer (pre cursor to the x series outrigger style manitex) wont pick itself off the ground.

Too short of radius. Most boom trucks will only get you to 70-80' radius with a 'typical' load, that doesn't cut it in rental. My old 250 shows 120' with 1,000lbs over the rear 80'main 26' jib 20' stinger. (I don't usually do that, 120' radius is way more comfortable in my 35ton).

Too little capacity/ strength. Goes with the radius problem- weight of machine gets you radius and capacity. They cheat with boom trucks and give you wider outrigger span to offset the less weight of machine, and rate them at 6' radius instead of 10', but gravity wins out. A boom truck with 10,000lbs on the hook has his hands full, I'll run my 25 ton truck crane from 20-30,000lbs unloading equipment in a pinch. My tms 300 will outpick a 40 ton national, I just can't keep up when we leave the job. Compare the boom on a new National, manitex, elliot, with a tms 250.

For me-no boom trucks yet, but they sell them every day.


So --- If tomorrow I started out again with only one crane, and I was spending between $50- 80,000 (my limits of what I consider a reasonable amount), I would be buying a terex 340, or a grove tms 700-750 in a 1988-1999 age. They've depreciated in price about as far as they'll go down in a ten year time. No emissions, limited or no computer motors. They offer good charts for their weight. I'd probably buy the grove because of its little bit larger size, but the 340 would do 75% of the work you would do with the 50 ton in a smaller package. Grove/ linkbelts are Cadillac's, terex's are Chevy's.

Of course remember this advice is worth exactly what your paying for it.

 

[Buckethead]

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but since you don't seem to know what size you need, I would call one of the rental companies like AmQuip or Maxim, they have every type of crane available. Again, I hope this helps you.

 

[td25c]

Very good points crane operator .

Most of my work is within 30 miles from the shop , dedicated truck cranes work the best for us . After that point another crane company would pick up the job .

Really like the 25 ton truck rigs as I can hop in , turn the key and head to a jobsite without additional support or counterweights .

Big enough to handle some weight and small enough to go set trusses on a garage . Nice size machine for small operator like myself .


Then on the other hand if a contractor is travelling cross country job to job a tandem high speck boom truck might be the way to go as you could also pull a trailer behind it hauling equipment / product .

All depends on contractors needs & full scope of work I reckon ?

 

[Knepptune]

I am not a boom truck guy at all but if all I did was grain handling work I'd probably have a boom truck. The longer live boom would be the difference. For a quick run to set a grain pipe, auger, or motor on top of a grain leg that national would way out perform the real crane. For most grain handling work you need a long boom. That's the boom truck specialty. Long boom, not that much chart. Not fantastic for high cycle work. But great for quick sets.

I'd tend to think if a national can't get up on outriggers there's something wrong with it.

The set up and travel time on those older groves are back breakers. There's a big difference in cruising at 65-70 vs having it pegged praying you don't hit a hill so you can maintain 53 mph. And don't get me started on the dead section/jib.

Cranes and boom trucks both have their places and for general grain handling work the boom truck beats the crane 8 outta ten times.

With all that being said imo the absolute best crane for the money is the terex t340s little brother the t230. 95' live boom 65 mph. 43 ft jib. And you can get a pretty good one for 80-90k. That was a fantastic model for terex.

 

[td25c]

The set up and travel time on those older groves are back breakers. There's a big difference in cruising at 65-70 vs having it pegged praying you don't hit a hill so you can maintain 53 mph. And don't get me started on the dead section/jib.

They do put the operator in position to burn a few calories at times , no wonder I feel tired & wore out .

Did notice a problem on the way home after a job , fan motor in the cab was blowing warm air . I probably forgot to shut off the heater valve or ........... Low on Freon for the air conditioning :beatsme

I cant seem to find a fitting to charge the A/C system :beatsme

 

[lantraxco]

They do put the operator in position to burn a few calories at times , no wonder I feel tired & wore out .

Did notice a problem on the way home after a job , fan motor in the cab was blowing warm air . I probably forgot to shut off the heater valve or ........... Low on Freon for the air conditioning :beatsme

I cant seem to find a fitting to charge the A/C system :beatsme

Roll the window down, it's probably on the outside of the door?