question for the h.e. techs!

[counter]

maybe you guys can help us all here in regards to using "nose candy" for start up! ive heard it said that it fries rings and pistons! others say ,you have no choice when working with worn out stuff! others say in real cold conditions ,you have no choice! others say it depends on if it is diesel or gas! i imagine its still a matter of how often, and how much! i know you guys who have to deal with this daily will give us all a good education!

 

[lynger]

Personally I think if you use it carefully and only as a last resort it can get you out of some cold situations....but if it is abused it can cause some serious damage. I think the real danger of it is that its burning uncontrollably(is that even a word) if there is too much put in...(somebody might correct me on this). If you've ever seen someone squirt too much in you know what I mean, the engines rpm skyrockets. Anyways when it comes down to it I keep a can lying around for those old girls that just dont want to get up on those cold mornings.

My $ 0.2 anyways.

Oh one more thing. I know alot of old CAT equipment had ether injectors installed on them(factory I believe) with a handy button right in the cab...I guess it all comes down to personal choice/preference.

lynger

 

[RonG]

Starting fluid (ether) saves a lot of wear and tear on your equipment if used properly.
There are many things to consider when starting a cold engine such as the condition of your batteries etc etc,location of the engine that needs starting,can you get near it to jump it if it needs it?
The sooner that engine is running under its own power the better.
Some engines with preheaters discourage the use of ether but if you have low batteries you might not have enough current available to crank the engine over after you preheat it properly.I have used ether in those situations too,the key there is to use very little.....I have found that less than you think you need is usually enough.
There will always be the arguement that poorly maintained equipment is no excuse but in real world practice you will be faced with situations that require compromising solutions.
The concept of "last resort" misses the point in my opinion.Ron G

 

[nextdoor]

I've always used ether on the old stuff thats nearly ready (if not over due) for boot hill. Now no doubt it doesnt get as cold here in Oz as it does in other parts but I try and shy away from using it because the old girls tend to get addicted to it real quick! Maybe its an engine's drug of choice.Cheers.

 

[RocksnRoses]

I have used ether for years on different engines with no detrimental effects. Our Champion grader has a GM 471 which needs a sniff first thing in the morning and while some say that GM’s must be worn out if they need ether, this one isn’t showing any signs of a worn out motor. It is also equipped with the cold starting ether canister, so the manufacturers must think it is OK to use ether. I have also seen some John Deere tractors out here, fitted with the ether starting aids, so John Deere must also think it is OK to use it.

Some engines with preheaters discourage the use of ether...... Ron G

This brings to mind and incident that happened many years ago. We had an International AWD 7 farm tractor fitted with glow plugs and once the batteries got down a bit, it was really hard to start. There probably is a North American equivalent to this tractor, but I do not know what the numbers are. The shed we kept it in was on a hill, so in the mornings, we would heat it with the glow plugs, roll it out the shed, throw it in to road gear and jump start it. This particular morning it would not start and we had ran out of hill, so the old man sprayed some ether into the air intake and it still would not start. By now the batteries were getting pretty sluggish. I do not know who made the decision, but I tried the glow plugs again. Next thing there was a god almighty bang, the old man jumped about six feet in the air, the tractor was covered in oil, the built up ether in the air intake had exploded and blew the pan clean off the bottom of the oil bath air cleaner, sending oil everywhere. Needless to say, I did not do that again.

Rn’R.

 

[MrKomatsu]

Well in my years of experiance starting fluid was a bad word...but it did get you out of a jam...old worn out engines and cold start.....but it does in fact cause a wiping effect in the cylinder....it wipes dowm the wall...i.e. oil is gone for a moment......

 

[Speedpup]

some now have top end lubricant in the can like Valvoline I just bought. I have used it for years on my JD's and Detroit when cold the machines have it built in so you don't use to much. Heavy hit with a can once in a while. Detroit is worn a bit and when cold it's no go without a HIT

 

[MrElectric03]

I keep a can on my truck for when I need it...that said I have not gone through more than 2 cans in the last 2 years. I use it as a last resort only and most machines I work on start up just fine but it doesnt get very cold here in Southern California.

 

[LonestarCobra]

When used in small amounts in the cold when needed really does not hurt. When 2-3 cans are run through the engine at one time to get one started it does have bad effects on the engine. It usually does not get below 20 deg F here much, but I have seen alot of machines with factory ether injectors on them.

 

[counter]

thanks for the come backs! i still wonder about you boys in minn. or alaska or canada! thats a whole different "kettleof fish" !

 

[Iron Horse]

The biggest thing to watch , is to make sure you use it sparingly . If too much is used , it will ignite prematurely as the piston is on it's way up . This can break piston lands , bend rods and twist cranks etc. as the inertial of the flywheel/torque converter or clutch pack is not easy to stop . You know the sound of Detonation when too much has been squirted into an engine , we've all heard the knock . But used sparingly , i have found it a must have on ocassions .

 

[counter]

nose candy

so is the extra bang more hurtful on a gas motor then a diesel?and is its use more prominent up in the colder climates? or do the big stuff just get stuborn with age?: im just thinkin , the deere, cat, komotsu men arent tossin a can in at the sales close!!!!!!! lol

 

[Cmark]

Here's the Aussie version....

 

[nextdoor]

I have used ether for years on different engines with no detrimental effects. Our Champion grader has a GM 471 which needs a sniff first thing in the morning and while some say that GM’s must be worn out if they need ether, this one isn’t showing any signs of a worn out motor. It is also equipped with the cold starting ether canister, so the manufacturers must think it is OK to use ether. I have also seen some John Deere tractors out here, fitted with the ether starting aids, so John Deere must also think it is OK to use it.



This brings to mind and incident that happened many years ago. We had an International AWD 7 farm tractor fitted with glow plugs and once the batteries got down a bit, it was really hard to start. There probably is a North American equivalent to this tractor, but I do not know what the numbers are. The shed we kept it in was on a hill, so in the mornings, we would heat it with the glow plugs, roll it out the shed, throw it in to road gear and jump start it. This particular morning it would not start and we had ran out of hill, so the old man sprayed some ether into the air intake and it still would not start. By now the batteries were getting pretty sluggish. I do not know who made the decision, but I tried the glow plugs again. Next thing there was a god almighty bang, the old man jumped about six feet in the air, the tractor was covered in oil, the built up ether in the air intake had exploded and blew the pan clean off the bottom of the oil bath air cleaner, sending oil everywhere. Needless to say, I did not do that again.

Rn’R.

G'day Rn'R, your AW7 story brought back some memories. We had the newer cousin to it , the A554 and had a similar thing happen exept we had been towing it. Lucky for us is wasnt the air cleaner, it removed the muffler in an instant. It was not long after that the crank broke in the middle. (they always were light on in the bottom end)
They were certainly an engine that loved the ether. As for a US equivalent well I dont know if they could get one to start in their winter! Cheers.:drinkup

 

[RocksnRoses]

G'day Rn'R, your AW7 story brought back some memories. We had the newer cousin to it , the A554 and had a similar thing happen exept we had been towing it. Lucky for us is wasnt the air cleaner, it removed the muffler in an instant. It was not long after that the crank broke in the middle. (they always were light on in the bottom end)
They were certainly an engine that loved the ether. As for a US equivalent well I dont know if they could get one to start in their winter! Cheers.:drinkup

I'll bet there are a lot more stories that could be told, when it came to starting those old Inters, nextdoor. Ours was just an on going saga when it came to start it, especially on cold frosty mornings, Aerostart (ether) was standard kit. The early 554's from my understanding, were basically the AWD 7 opened out from 1,600 rpm to 1,800 rpm and a few cosmetic changes. Quite a few had engine problems and also rear end problems as well, they didn't seem to like the extra power, without being beefed up. When they were going, they were darn good tractors, pull like all get out, just starting them was the problem.

Rn'R.

 

[Squizzy246B]

Real men use this starting aid

 

[RocksnRoses]

Real men use this starting aid

Funnily enough, the AWD 7 I was talking about, came with a crank handle, but they were an indirect injection, 4 cylinder diesel and it was all I could do, just to turn it over. Anyway, a bloke here had one of these tractors, he was a real big man and they reckoned he could start it with the handle. I don't know who squirted the ether in while he cranked.

Rn'R.

 

[counter]

i guess i feel better about the use of ether now! i know it worked real good in the potatoe gun i had years ago! lol!

 

[crossthreaded]

I have seen people drive equipment for 100-200 yards to get it out of the way if it was OOS on a can of ether.

Do I keep a can in my truck? Yes.
Do I advocate its use? No.
Do I use it when necessary? Yes.

A lot of the newer engines, twin turbo cats, ddc detroits, and especially the mercedes are strongly against the use of ether under any circumstances. Alot has to do with the common rail injection stuff, while some has to do with the egr systems.

It is necessary, but should only be used when you have to.


and fwiw, I have never heard it called "nose candy". That comes in a little ziploc bag around here.

 

[V16CatMetKanick]

Ether is ok to use if you get the engine cranking first. That way it can possibly start building oil pressure so it wont dry the cylinders. Ether ignites at about 200 to 275 degrees so it can be bad on a diesel if not done right. Most IH diesels need to be started on it but they have the rings to do it. Cat diesels don't like it at all ( atleast the new series). I've seen too many broken pistons from it. Up here in New Hampshire it can get mighty cold in the winter (-20 is nothing to see in January) so alot of people use ether. If the engine is turning and a "snuff" is given it's not really that bad on the pistons and valves.