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Push pulling! What happened???

Gavin84w

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2007
Messages
554
Location
Australia
In a related subject what happened to the 651? Why does Caterpillar no longer offer it? One of the contractors that I work for runs a number of older 651s that are either pushed with a D9L or with a D9L and a D9G doubled up and we are able to move a lot of material. Weight wise a 657 isn't as easy to mobilize to a job site. They are not as fuel efficient as a 651 per material moved.

A subject dear to my heart 621, pure and simple why they don't offer it any more = no sales for it. There just was not the orders coming in that justified it,s existence so they dropped it. I know of customers that will still buy them and if there was a large enough order Cat would do a 51G but until then it is done.

Who is the outfit you work for that has 51,s?
 

WabcoMan

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
258
Location
New Zealand
Occupation
Heavy equipment parts manager
Gavin84W,

You are right about elevators & rocks.
The only elevating machines I have seen successfully operate in rocky material were Wabco's (252FT, 333FT, 353FT) and a Cat 639D - all now sadly gone from the marketplace:(
 

DPete

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
1,677
Location
Central Ca.
In terms of versitility the 27's are superior for their ability to handle different materials, footing and terrain. We run a couple 23's here in our flat valley where rocks are rare and they are very efficent in their place, they also will pick up after a grader cleanly and they don't leave big berms by the stakes. Each has it's strengths, when it comes to really moving bulk dirt an open bowl can't be beat IMO
 

surfer-joe

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
1,403
Location
Arizona
Last I knew, 651's were custom orders only.

I never cared for 627's. TS-14's were better all around and a lot cheaper to run.
 

621_Rocker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
70
Location
Coeur dAlene, Idaho
>Who is the outfit you work for that has 51,s?

Gavin:

I prefer to not name the company on here. It is a small company with only about 10 people on the payroll. All of the equipment is owned and it is older. They do what it takes to make the equipment production ready such as rebuilding scraper floors or rebuilding necks and cushion hitches. They do not have payments to make so if the equipment sits for a while it is not a big concern. They have a fleet of 8 651s and 641s plus a number of smaller finishing scrapers.

621_Rocker
 

engi

Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2010
Messages
16
Location
Alberta
Who says push/pulling is dead? It's alive and well up here. 27's are kinda small I agree with the Vantage man on this one. 57's are where its at.

I would suspect the reason for so many people selling their buggies is the lack of buggy work, is there a lot of buggy work left in some places? Up here there is a ton of buggy work, thats why you see a lot of twin's heading up here to work.

I think that push pulling, and even scrapers in general are seeing a decline in Alberta. With the boom the talent pool for operators really declined. Green operators are dangerous push/pulling, and experienced guys are sick of working with them.

Sureway, MAP, Kidco and the like have fleets of them, and will obviously continue to use them...their investment is too great. The industrial guys started shifting away from them towards hoe/truck operations 5 years ago. They are a liability safety wise, as any paint scrape can be classed as a property damage incident.

Personnel wise trucks are easier to staff. A crew with 8 scrapers requires 6-8 good operators to work with any kind of efficiency. With trucks you need a hoe hand and a dozer operator....the rest of the guys can be pylons.
 

Burnout

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
1,448
Location
Edmonton AB
Occupation
Operator at Sureway Construction
I think that push pulling, and even scrapers in general are seeing a decline in Alberta. With the boom the talent pool for operators really declined. Green operators are dangerous push/pulling, and experienced guys are sick of working with them.

Sureway, MAP, Kidco and the like have fleets of them, and will obviously continue to use them...their investment is too great. The industrial guys started shifting away from them towards hoe/truck operations 5 years ago. They are a liability safety wise, as any paint scrape can be classed as a property damage incident.

Personnel wise trucks are easier to staff. A crew with 8 scrapers requires 6-8 good operators to work with any kind of efficiency. With trucks you need a hoe hand and a dozer operator....the rest of the guys can be pylons.

I have worked with the hoe/trucks method... I was the hoe operator. Trust me, having mindless steering wheel attendants in the trucks is just as much of a safety hazard as one in a scraper. And even if only 1 driver is mindless... it still makes a baaad day. Ever walked a 450 hitachi across site to pick up black dirt out of road core?
 

WabcoMan

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
258
Location
New Zealand
Occupation
Heavy equipment parts manager
Speaking as an old scraper hand, I think there will always be a place for the scraper in an earthmoving spread, be it a twin, elevator or a towed pan.
I believe that the trend away from scrapers to ATD's is/was a passing fad.
Sure, there are applications for this type of gear especially if the underfoot conditions are poor.
But - why spend extra money on staff, fuel and maintenance when a motor scraper or pan scraper will do the work - well - and do its own compaction (on smaller jobs) ?
It just doesn't make economic sense to me to have an excavator, ATD's, dozer on the fill and compaction equipment when a scraper will do the work just as well.
The current trend towards large Ag tractors and multiple towed pan set ups just highlights the fact that fashion trends are alive and well in the earthmoving industry.
It isn't a new idea either - LeTourneau was hitching two towed scrapers in tandem back in the 1930's which only goes to prove that what was old is new again.

Rocks - OK, if you've got a lot of rocks to shift and the ground conditions are good put in rigid frame dumpers - they're cheaper to run than ATD's and you can get a bigger load in them. The largest ATD's only run out to 50 tons capacity where the rigid frames go out to 360+ tons - its a no-brainer.

Operators - You can't find a good scraper operator - train them :Banghead
I've seen some dunderheads make great scraper operators given the proper training. Not all good operators are boon, some have to be made and it is your responsibility to train them adequately.
Also, hire people that have a bit of respect for the equipment you run. It will save you thousands.

I'm not having a downer on ATD's - there is a place for them just like LGP dozers.
All I'm saying is that generally, most cut to fill jobs of any consequence can be handled more economically by scrapers :stirthepot
 

Burnout

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
1,448
Location
Edmonton AB
Occupation
Operator at Sureway Construction
I also forgot to mention one other thing about Scrapers......they're still the cheapest way to move dirt. They are their own hoe, truck, dozer and like WabcoMan said... they can kinda compact material.

The site I am on as we speak has a small EW crew on it. They are running a Hitachi ZX350 a Cat 730 and a 735. They also have a 627E running around by itself, all of them are workin a cut and fill to build us an engineered fill to put the sewer/water on. That scraper is just toolin around site at no great speed and he's doin some serious damage to what they need to do. 2 trucks aren't keeping up to a tiny little 627.
 

engi

Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2010
Messages
16
Location
Alberta
Ever walked a 450 hitachi across site to pick up black dirt out of road core?

I've picked the box up on a rock truck a dozen times...a couple 9/16ths to put the exahaust back together and get back at her. Its common enough even at Suncor they are starting to call it a near miss rather than an equipment damage.

Not such a big deal for Sureway, AT and most developers aren't scrutinizing 3 years of WCB and reportable incident stats before they allow you to bid.

I've also picked up 27's off their roofs, fished 57's out of the water, and been jack-knifed in a 27 so hard the stinger came through the hydraulic tank...Ask me about the time 2 57's tore the blade off a stuck D10 in Villeneuve.

A pylon is dangerous in any seat, even the foremans.
 

637slayer

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
486
Location
wyo
Occupation
scraper hand
where i work and the area where i work push-pulling is going strong, we use 637s and so does our competition, until it gets too rocky. they talk about going to hoes and trucks but for this application scrapers are the perfect tool, watching a good team push pulling is a pretty sight, having a good push partner is priceless.
 

JDOFMEMI

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Messages
3,074
Location
SoCal
One reason the trucks are gaining ground on the scrapers is that they can do any type of earthwork.

Sand, no problem. Scrapers do sand, but if there is an odd rock in it, the apron can hang up on it and loose 1/3 of the load en route to the fill. It can be hard to get the rated load unless conditions are just right. Paddlewheels will fill every time, but unless it is sticky sand, you loose a lot en route also. The trucks haul a full load every time, and it stays in.

Rock, no problem. Scrapers, it depends. Paddlewheels are helpless in rock. Yes, the 353 and the 639 could, but you would still pay a price, and you can just about count the ones left in the world on fingers and toes. Push pulls in rock is hard on tire wear, and with tires for 637's around 10K a pop, you don't want to play that game too long. General maintenance on any push pull in rock is huge as well. Cutting edges at over $1,000 a set, and in rock, they might not last the week. Single engine with push cats seems the best in rock, but you still have cutting edges to change, and tire problems, though not as many.
Trucks, load it with a hoe. One machine with a bucket to work on and put teeth on. I have averaged between 100,000 to 300,000 yards per set of teeth on a 375 Cat, and that set costs just a bit more than ONE set of scraper edges. Scraper edges are usually done in by 50,000 yards.Keep the road clear and tire life will be at least 3 times what it is on a scraper, not to mention much cheaper. A set of 6 truck tires is about 35K, while a set of 4 scraper tires will run 40K, and last 1/2 or less. It don't matter how well your roads are kept, the scraper runs over the rocks as they are dumped. That is when most flats I see on well managed rock jobs occur. Trucks run on a good road, and shouldn't be driving onwhat they dumped till it is knocked down.

Good dirt. Trucks haul it with no trouble. Here the scrapers will usually be more productibve, but also usually with a high operating cost. Scrapers can scale up easier by adding units. Trucks need to be matched to the loading tool, so you run 1 spread, or 2, but not in between.

For a fixed location, you can select the perfect tool, but for a contractor, one job is dirt, the next rock, then sand, and back to rock again, etc. Trucks can go to any of them and perform.

Much is made of the added support needed for trucks when the scraper fans are talking. Except in ideal conditions, you will usually find some dozers maintaining the cut, ripping, digging corners out, etc. The trucks have a big hoe, and the dozer from the fill comes by now and then to clean up. In the fill, the scrapers spread, but unless you are just stockpiling, there is usually a machine spreading and mixing. The truck spread has a dozer with it the same way.

Now, for cost. 637 scraper hauls about 40 ton to 44 ton per load. Burns a bit over 20 gallons per hour doing it. My 40 ton Volvo's burn around 5 gallons per. Scraper ops are higher paid than truckies. The hoe burns fuel too, but so does the dozer maintaining the scraper cut. The parts bill for the truck spread is a pittance compared to the parts bill for the scraper spread. Same goes with the tires.

Now, I am not saying scrapers are going out, or there is no place for them. There are jobs that they are absolutely the best tool. But, for a contractor who don't know what the next job will bring, the argument for trucks instead of scrapers is pretty strong.

I have simplified things a bit, but I think you can get the picture.
 

EGS

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
577
Location
Southern Wisconsin
Occupation
Local 139 operator
The company I work for has about half and half, trucks/scrapers.

I have never been on a job with them that didn't have some trucks and some scrapers. We almost always have scrapers and trucks working together in the borrow ponds. Around here you could not be competitive in the bidding of you only had trucks or only scrapers. Our 631's blow the doors off of our 740's every day, but you need the trucks for wet, rocky, hard to get in areas. Top soiling is a lot faster with 740's also.

As far as push-pulling, almost nobody push-pulls around here any more. Everybody has 621's and 631's. I only know of a few that have push-pull set-ups and they hardly ever use them.
 

stinkycat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
224
Location
Ohio
Occupation
retired, disabled vet
Lake County Grading in Gurnee? has 2 sets in their yard @ 137 and 21 in Northern Il
 
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