Push Power Question

[proinlinesk8r]

I purchased a Samsung SL120-2 wheel loader this past summer for snow removal purposes and I will be honest in that I do not know tons about machines of this size. The machine runs great, shifts into gear with no problems, lifts with ease, but I don't seem to have any push power. I have replaced all filters and done "typical" scheduled maintenance, and I was hoping that someone could point me in the right direction to solving this problem?

This machine has a Cummins 5.9L with a Clark trans. I was not crazy about a Samsung brand but I did like the power tran it offered plus the price was good.

Please let me know your thoughts! Proinlinesk8r@aol.com

 

[Nige]

You say it doesn't seem to have any "push power". What exactly do you mean by this..? Is the engine bogging down (accompanied by black or blue smoke maybe?) when you try to push a huge mound of material, or does the engine RPM stay high but the loader doesn't push until you reduce the amount of material it's pushing..? Is there any circumstance where you can spin the wheels..? I would have thought working on snow that spinning the wheels would be your major problem TBH.

 

[proinlinesk8r]

The motor runs as it should and RPM's stay true. I cannot spin tires and I'm only pushing a small pile of stone (maybe 2 c/y). I want to get the machine out on a job site for snow this week but I'm afraid it won't perform. I just bought the machine this past summer and have not used it yet. I did basic maintenance such as engine oil/filter, fuel filers, air filter, and spin on hydro filter. I did not change the other fluids as time is not on my side but I did feel the hydro fluid was dirty based on the oil I saw when changing the filter, but isn't the hydro system for the boom, turning, etc?. I feel the issue might be trans related, and I have not done anything other than check the trans fluid level and it was good. Is there a internal trans fitter or screen that I can change in the trans, and what kind of fluid does it take? And advice will help and be appreciated!

 

[Nige]

No experience of Samsung so I can't help you on the trans side but if it was mine the first thing I'd be doing would be looking for a transmission filter and/or suction screen for the power train oil system to check for particles in the filter. That plus an oil & filter change would be the place to start.

Does it have a temperature gauge for the transmission..? If so what does that guage do while you're trying to push with the loader..?
Is there a dipstick or sight glass for the transmission oil level..? Does the oil in/on it look clear or dirty..?

The hydraulic system for bucket & steering will be a totally separate system (at least I think it will) but if the oil you saw in that system was dirty when you changed the filter didn't it cross your mind to change the oil as well..?

Sounds to me like one or more of the transmission clutches could be slipping. I know it may seem like a stupid question but have you tried getting it up against something solid in reverse and trying to spin the wheels..? The reason I ask is that there will be 2 different clutches for forward and reverse directions. If it will spin the wheels in reverse then it sounds to me like your forward direction clutch is toast.

 

[ih100]

Silly question, but how many gears does this machine have and which one are you in? Does it have a transmission disconnect button on the hydraulic lever and you're inadvertently holding it? Don't take offence, but you did say it's a new to you type and size of machine. I hope the problem is a cheap one to resolve.

 

[proinlinesk8r]

It is a 4spd forward and 3spd reverse. I tried pushing in all gears and I have not been pushing the trans disconnect. Although this is a new machine to me I do own one a bit smaller (same operation) and I have been using them for years. The maintenance and repairs are what I am trying to educate myself with more than anything. The only thing I am not familiar with as an operator is the EGS (Electronic Gear Selector) and I wonder if this could be an issue? This EGS unit is like any other gear selector but it has a computer board in the controller rather than a simple lever on other makes. After playing with this unit I also noticed that it doesn't seem to go full,speed in gear 3 and 4. I can tell that I shift into those gears, but it doesn't seem to the speeds listed on Richiespecs in those two gears.

Nige, I will look for a screen / filter. The fluid is at a good level but I'm sure it could use a fluid change.

I have to thank you guys for your ideas and I will keep trying... I look forward to your other thoughts!

 

[Nige]

If the hydraulic oil was not clean when you changed the filter I would change the oil. Nothing to do with your current problem but I'd do it for peace of mind more than anything else.

If you haven't changed the transmission oil and filter I would do so at the earliest opportunity and at the same time look for a washable screen (often magnetic) on the suction side of the pump that can be a very good indicator of something coming apart in the transmission. Often the screen is mounted right in the bottom of the transmission itself and requires some disassembly to get at it, in other words it may not be obvious at first glance it's even there at all. When changing the transmission oil make sure you get the correct spec of oil. I have no idea myself what a Clark transmission should use.

IMHO I would personally do all the simple basic maintenance stuff just to tick the "I know now it can't be that" boxes before even thinking of going digging into the electronic controls.

 

[stondad]

Always good words from you Nige.
When did you put on Captain Mainwaring's cap ? I'm afraid there would be a lot of people on the Forum who don't know him.

As for the Samsung:-

If your selector is just electric, that's ok.
But if it is electronic through a ECM, I fear for you.

Sometimes low engine power is hard to identify.

The clue to my highly delinquent imagination is your info about speeds in the higher gears.
If the speeds are ok in reverse, then logic points to the fwd clutch pack.
Otherwise, you could have a few ponies resting on you.

But a not often seen problem could be the cause of yours, and it fits the symptoms.
There is a "sprag" or "one way" clutch in your torque converter that holds the stator from spinning when it is under load. Sometimes there are more than one.
If the sprag clutch doesn't lock, and allows the stator to rotate backwards, even slowly, the efficiency of your torque convertor is shot to pieces when under load.

I only ever diagnosed this once and got hero status as a result. (It was a new machine).
I don't think the machine I fixed had a trans temp gauge but I am pretty sure that there was little or no evidence of trans oil heating, otherwise everyone else would have been all over it.

Hope this helps.

Please report back as so many people get good help and interest on the Forum, but never post the washup of their problem.

 

[proinlinesk8r]

Stondad, Speeds are the same forwards as in reverse (except there is no 4th gear in reverse and that is OEM)

I am going to start with the suction screen and trans filter along with fluid as Nige suggest. I am usually a big fluid / filter guy in all my equipment but I have been dragging my feet on this one as time is against me. I just got the machine and was hoping to just turn the key, put a 100 - 150 hours on it this winter and go over it in the spring, but that is not the case. I am a younger college grad with a young family and full time job so I only have Saturdays to work on this machine and it's been great getting info from you guys as it points me in the right direction to start and get to the point rather than waste time. I do not think this is a spin on external filter so if anyone knows what style filter or where the filter is located along with the suction screen that would help? I also could use some help on what fluid to buy and a guess on how much to purchase? In addition to your thoughts I am also going to check with a local dealer. The following link also gave me some good direction from Clark as it has places to start with known problems:

http://www.clark-transmissions.com/help.htm

 

[Nige]

As I suggested above try the transmission in reverse up against an immovable object and see if you can spin the wheels. If you can then it looks like the forward direction clutch, if not then maybe it's the torque converter. Either way an oil/filter change plus cleaning the suction screen (if it has one) would be a good start. As a mostly Cat man I'm batting blind here and am kinda suprised that there is nobody on here with Clark transmission experience jumping in to comment.

Does that site you posted have any link to sectioned drawings of your particular model of transmission (can you get the transmission model/Serial Number details off the loader?) so that we can see what it looks like..? I note it DOES mention a suction screen numerous times in the troubleshooting.

 

[proinlinesk8r]

I tried forward under load and reverse under load and had the same outcome (no power and no tire spinning). It is a Clark 24000 series transmission and I do have a service manual from Clark / Dana Spicer if you have an email I will forward it to you. The fluid level was above the full line so I did drop the fluid and clean the suction screen (screen was dirty) and fluid seemed to be dirty as well. I got about 5-5.5 gallons out and put about 4.5 gallons in. After service was done I have the same No-Power result but now I have a clicking noise by the spin on filter. After further inspection I noticed that the fluid that I thought was extremely dirty last week was air bubbles. It also still has these air bubbles and I do not know how to get them out of the system? There is a breather on this trans but I do not know how it works or if its the problem.

At this point I think my best bet is to get a dealer involved. I know Volvo took over Samsung and I could use them or my other idea would be Palmer Johnson or General Truck Parts who are both Dana Spicer / Clark dealer and service provided. All three are in my area unless someone else knows a good company in the Elgin, IL area?

 

[Nige]

You say the suction screen was dirty..? Was there anything recognizable in it or was it just a load of black particles..?
Did the oil you drained smell burned..?
You say the oil was above the full mark. Does the manual say how to check the oil..? Some transmissions require the machine to be at operating temperature with the engine idling to check the level. Usually the level when stopped is higher than that when operating, which could explain why your level was "high".
What type of oil does the manual call for..?
The bubbles in the oil suggest the circuit is pulling in air somewhere. You need to check the suction line from the tank (or transmission oil pan) to the pump. Maybe you have a loose joint or a hose clip that is not tight. Don't rely on simply an external inspection or a "pull test", personally I'd pull the hoses off to check them.

 

[proinlinesk8r]

Suction just had black gunk on it and nothing recognizable. The oil did not smell burnt. I did check it off and that makes sense to check it when its on (just like a car) so I will have to do that because I only filled it to the full point in off. I purchased a service manual and it calls for 10w30 hydraulic oil in my climate so I used the Deere Hyguard which is a 10w30 weight and is recommended by Dana Spicer / Clark. I was told by a guy from Great Lakes Power to use SAE30 motor oil and Dextron III from a guy from Palmer Johnson. I found both of these guys knowledgeable but I went with the OEM spec. I agree that I am sucking air because it is very aerated as you can see lots of bubbles.

 

[stondad]

I second all that Nige said.

What you found with everyone's recommendation for oil is common but you did the right thing.

Fingers crossed that you have success when you stop it sucking air.

 

[proinlinesk8r]

If I have air going into the system, will that make a big loss of power?

 

[stondad]

I could give you a few reasons that say "yes'.

But you may get rid of the air and still have the same problem. But get rid of the air you must as your next move.

Hopefully it is making the torque converter inefficient and there is no other fault or damage.

Just a thought. Depending on how bad your suction strainer was clogged, is there a chance of any restriction further up the suction line, which can cause it to "make it's own air"?

 

[oldseabee]

What model 24000 transmission is it? 2420? What kind of convertor is it, part of trans or mounted to the engine with a drive shaft to the transmission?. check the suction line to the charge pump for collapsed lining. If the trans is seperate put it in low gear and push agains something. if the drive shaft to the transmission is turning there is a trans problem if not check engine stall speed. Torque convertors are for max torque at engine stall, if the engine isn't making RPM the convertor will just stall out. Most machines will have a stall speed listed, usually with trans stalled against a load and hydraulics bottomed out at a specified pressure.

 

[Nige]

What he said............. :iagree

 

[Chris Hyde]

I have the same loader and just came across this post because I have similar issues ( Low power ) only moves after a long warm up ( 15-30 minutes) Noisy around transmission filter. I ordered the service manual from Samsung / Volvo. It states that the tansmission oil level should be checked with the oil at operating temp. 176-208 degrees F, Spec is SAE 10w engine oil and total capacity is listed at 7.5 gallons. So for the guy above who only got out 5.5 gallons and only put in 4.5 gallons, this could be your problem. I will check how much i get out of mine to verify how low it was. I have been checkiing mine cold at rest and the level is at the full mark. After I read the service manual and I check it correctly, the dip stick is bone dry. I am going to get the right fluid and filter and clean the suction screen. I think the filter is a Napa 7410 or a Baldwin BT8832 - I will post an update in a week or so.

 

[Simon C]

Have seen a 2420 transmission with a fibre gear that was blown but only slipping when loaded up.
They also have some pipes internally inside transmission that can crack or leak. Good idea as stated above to check stall speed. Get new oil and filters installed. Will wait for further updates.
Simon C