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Purchasing first TLB and need advice
- Thread starter magnus spencer
- Start date
crane operator
Senior Member
Warranty doesn't equal reliability, and I don't think the warranty matters if the dealer isn't close. Would the warranty include them flying a mechanic in to fix things? Or does that just mean "at the dealership" because of your location?
Who on the island fixes the cars/ garbage trucks/ utility equipment?
The newer emissions equipment can take down a machine/ derate it, and its going to take a dealer tech for some things to get it going.
This is what concerns me. Does this machine have to "make money" for you in outside projects- in order for you to live and eat? If you really don't know what you are doing, heavy equipment can get expensive in a hurry.
If I had to vote, it would be Cat or Komatsu (because they have dealer help close- and you're going to need help), I have yet to meet anything JCB that I liked. JCB just do things differently.
You state that there's other equipment on the island (just not available- I'm guessing its government)- what are they using?
Personally, I would go with something at half the price and used--- vs. buying brand new. If the used route works out $$$ wise, you can always end up buying a new one 5 years from now. Or- you'll decide you really can't afford a new one.
I realize access to used isn't going to be easy- but you can look at it this way, either a new one or a used one is going to have to get shipped in. You're going to pay shipping cost either way. Buy something used out of europe and have it brought in, and keep 1/2 to 2/3 of the money in your pocket.
No one I know- purchases a new machine, with no experience, or the revenue stream to support it.
Anything new is going to be full of touchscreens, electronic joysticks, and telematics and can bus. If I was going to a remote location, I'd want the simplest and dumbest iron available. I.e. something from 20 years ago with limited electrical, and more simple lever controls and just hydraulic hoses. The more simple it is, the easier it is going to be, to keep it running.
Who on the island fixes the cars/ garbage trucks/ utility equipment?
The newer emissions equipment can take down a machine/ derate it, and its going to take a dealer tech for some things to get it going.
This is what concerns me. Does this machine have to "make money" for you in outside projects- in order for you to live and eat? If you really don't know what you are doing, heavy equipment can get expensive in a hurry.
If I had to vote, it would be Cat or Komatsu (because they have dealer help close- and you're going to need help), I have yet to meet anything JCB that I liked. JCB just do things differently.
You state that there's other equipment on the island (just not available- I'm guessing its government)- what are they using?
Personally, I would go with something at half the price and used--- vs. buying brand new. If the used route works out $$$ wise, you can always end up buying a new one 5 years from now. Or- you'll decide you really can't afford a new one.
I realize access to used isn't going to be easy- but you can look at it this way, either a new one or a used one is going to have to get shipped in. You're going to pay shipping cost either way. Buy something used out of europe and have it brought in, and keep 1/2 to 2/3 of the money in your pocket.
No one I know- purchases a new machine, with no experience, or the revenue stream to support it.
Anything new is going to be full of touchscreens, electronic joysticks, and telematics and can bus. If I was going to a remote location, I'd want the simplest and dumbest iron available. I.e. something from 20 years ago with limited electrical, and more simple lever controls and just hydraulic hoses. The more simple it is, the easier it is going to be, to keep it running.
magnus spencer
Member
yes, buying new seems the safest option, although costly. i am striving to understand the specifics of the warranty system currently, as 'local' in this context is across the ocean in some form. The budget is around 100,000 euros.
It's real encouraging talk in here buying new equipment. But they are correct, we have a newer track hoe at work and it quit running. The factory certified repair guy had to come in hassled with it and on the phone with the factory for several days, and they finally had to replace the whole complete touchscreen inside the cab. It had just went out of warranty.
magnus spencer
Member
well, you have summed up my last 6 months of angst....lol
i think there will be a market for selling my services as an operator with a machine, since there is more demand than availability for this type of work locally, for construction, road access, and farming. the machine doesn't have to make the money back, but it would be ideal and plausible.
the local government has a collection of dead machines, as do some other bankrupt construction companies. the sea air corrodes them quickly here. so, there are some self taught mechanics that do their best, but are not available to the public. i've seen jcb, new holland, cat all in the rust pile.
CM1995
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On the topic of buying new there are varying degrees of "warranty".
As others have posted about all the electronics on new machines can be expensive to repair. We recently purchased a Cat 325 excavator with a 5 year, 5,000 powertrain, hydraulic and technology warranty since it is nothing but large computer with tracks. I will sell/trade this machine before the warranty is out.
The first 12 months of warranty includes the service truck coming to our jobsite since we work within a 20-30 mile distance from a dealer location. The remaining 48 months we will have to pay travel time on the service truck port to port however parts and labor are still covered. This can be $300 + per trip depending on distance and whether the tech has to go get parts.
Like others have discussed how valuable is the warranty when you have to pay for a tech to fly back and forth? Would you also have to pay for their lodging and meals? If so new may not be the best option.
Also didn't think of the salt. It's amazing what salt air will do to destroy anything metal. You may want to consider buying used and cheap to run until it doesn't and get another one. Sounds wasteful but you are not in a normal environment.
As others have posted about all the electronics on new machines can be expensive to repair. We recently purchased a Cat 325 excavator with a 5 year, 5,000 powertrain, hydraulic and technology warranty since it is nothing but large computer with tracks. I will sell/trade this machine before the warranty is out.
The first 12 months of warranty includes the service truck coming to our jobsite since we work within a 20-30 mile distance from a dealer location. The remaining 48 months we will have to pay travel time on the service truck port to port however parts and labor are still covered. This can be $300 + per trip depending on distance and whether the tech has to go get parts.
Like others have discussed how valuable is the warranty when you have to pay for a tech to fly back and forth? Would you also have to pay for their lodging and meals? If so new may not be the best option.
Also didn't think of the salt. It's amazing what salt air will do to destroy anything metal. You may want to consider buying used and cheap to run until it doesn't and get another one. Sounds wasteful but you are not in a normal environment.
skyking1
Senior Member
Perhaps a few of us can rotate out and give you a crash course in how to do some things 
Regarding the salt air:
Make a tight storage situation for the machine, so it does not suffer greatly just sitting there.
Rinse it off every day that has bad mist conditions.
Regarding the salt air:
Make a tight storage situation for the machine, so it does not suffer greatly just sitting there.
Rinse it off every day that has bad mist conditions.
Last edited:
crane operator
Senior Member
Well, I'm glad you found this place on the worldwide web. There is someone likely here, that's fixed whatever problem you come across.
Looks like there is a volvo and Cat dealer on sao miguel. I take it that's where any support comes from?
A island of 3,500 people may make it tough to keep a backhoe busy, but if there's no competition, that makes it easier.
Bankrupt construction companies? See- there's your sign to not buy new equipment. You don't want to be in that category.
So if you are EU- you really have all of southern europe as your shopping area for used equipment? Spain, Portugal, southern france- Italy?
$100,000 is a great budget. 30-40,000 eu would buy a pretty nice used backhoe in the U.S, If the salt air is going to eat it up, there's no reason to buy new.
What's it cost to get a backhoe from portugal or spain to the islands? $10,000- $20,000? Can they offload at your port? What's your support for fuel/ oil / supplies?
Here's the way I look at equipment in a remote environment.
Transmission and engine axles, are a wash between new and old- the new has emissions in the engine, but used engines have hours and some age on it. Any problems in these components is going to take someone expert to fix.
Where the real difference is in the "control" systems. Anything new is going to be electric joysticks, wires, and electric controlled valving- to the cylinder. Older is going to be a lever or pilot hydraulic joysticks, controlling a valve body to the cylinder. If the newer quits working, it can be the electric joystick, the wiring, the electric controlled solenoid on the valve body, or maybe the ecu if its can bus. All of which take a pretty good electric guy, and/ or the laptop to figure out why its not working. The older system, there's likely a big puddle of hydraulic oil, which is going to point you to why its not working.
So why is it electrical today instead of the older style? Because its cheaper to build a plastic joystick and run wires than the old system of hoses and levers. Its not more reliable, its not longer lasting, its cheaper for them to build.
As another "example". Monday morning- you go to start the backhoe, and nothing happens when you turn the key. A "older" machine- you need 12v to the key, 12v leaving the key, 12v at the starter from the batteries. A small jumper wire will bypass the key portion, and a hammer smack will diagnose a stuck starter solenoid.
A new machine can be any of a number of safeties in the ecu, seat belt, canbus, and all the engine systems, as well as a starter with a stuck solenoid. And bypassing 12v to the starter solenoid and a hammer smack- isn't going to get it running.
Good luck with your search! Don't get burnt out on finding the "exact" perfect machine, sometimes good enough is "good enough". If you have some used equipment you're looking at, post up links and pictures here, and there's plenty of free advice on models and years to buy, and what to avoid.
Looks like there is a volvo and Cat dealer on sao miguel. I take it that's where any support comes from?
A island of 3,500 people may make it tough to keep a backhoe busy, but if there's no competition, that makes it easier.
Bankrupt construction companies? See- there's your sign to not buy new equipment. You don't want to be in that category.
So if you are EU- you really have all of southern europe as your shopping area for used equipment? Spain, Portugal, southern france- Italy?
$100,000 is a great budget. 30-40,000 eu would buy a pretty nice used backhoe in the U.S, If the salt air is going to eat it up, there's no reason to buy new.
What's it cost to get a backhoe from portugal or spain to the islands? $10,000- $20,000? Can they offload at your port? What's your support for fuel/ oil / supplies?
Here's the way I look at equipment in a remote environment.
Transmission and engine axles, are a wash between new and old- the new has emissions in the engine, but used engines have hours and some age on it. Any problems in these components is going to take someone expert to fix.
Where the real difference is in the "control" systems. Anything new is going to be electric joysticks, wires, and electric controlled valving- to the cylinder. Older is going to be a lever or pilot hydraulic joysticks, controlling a valve body to the cylinder. If the newer quits working, it can be the electric joystick, the wiring, the electric controlled solenoid on the valve body, or maybe the ecu if its can bus. All of which take a pretty good electric guy, and/ or the laptop to figure out why its not working. The older system, there's likely a big puddle of hydraulic oil, which is going to point you to why its not working.
So why is it electrical today instead of the older style? Because its cheaper to build a plastic joystick and run wires than the old system of hoses and levers. Its not more reliable, its not longer lasting, its cheaper for them to build.
As another "example". Monday morning- you go to start the backhoe, and nothing happens when you turn the key. A "older" machine- you need 12v to the key, 12v leaving the key, 12v at the starter from the batteries. A small jumper wire will bypass the key portion, and a hammer smack will diagnose a stuck starter solenoid.
A new machine can be any of a number of safeties in the ecu, seat belt, canbus, and all the engine systems, as well as a starter with a stuck solenoid. And bypassing 12v to the starter solenoid and a hammer smack- isn't going to get it running.
Good luck with your search! Don't get burnt out on finding the "exact" perfect machine, sometimes good enough is "good enough". If you have some used equipment you're looking at, post up links and pictures here, and there's plenty of free advice on models and years to buy, and what to avoid.
skyking1
Senior Member
Thanks for leaning into this, @crane operator
I'll second buying a good, used machine, preferably 20-25yrs old. On a remote island the last thing I'd want are any sort of electronics that require the dealer to plug in a computer to "fix" it. The older stuff is easier for anyone to work on, and easier for folks like us to troubleshoot via the web to help you fix it. You want something that has either all mechanical or hydraulic pilot controls and no emissions or electronic engine management. For most makes if you stay pre-2005 you should be good. I'd buy the nicest, lowest hour, unit you can find that meets those criteria. Have the local dealer on the mainland wherever you buy it from go through it, fully service it, and fix anything that needs fixing, then ship it out to your location.
crane operator
Senior Member
Just cruising the web and looking at what was available in europe through machinery trader. I was shocked by the number of case machines available, I didn't realize they were that big in europe. Mostly JCB (but a lot of equipment that I searched is from england, so that tracks with what showed up in my search). And some cat machines also.
P.S. there's also a case dealer on Sao miguel- case backhoes are quite popular in the U. S.
I'd be looking for something like these machines, if I were in your shoes.
www.machinerytrader.com
www.machinerytrader.com
www.machinerytrader.com
I threw in the 2012 one just because it was such a low hour machine.
Something under 4-5,000 hours or so, it would be nice if it came with a couple different buckets and forks. You haven't mentioned if you need a breaker or not, but I'd want one plumbed for a breaker, and 4x4.
If you can spend $30,000 or so on a nice used one, it gives you a lot of money for any repairs, and you don't have to learn on a brand new machine.
Buy used and learn for a couple years what you are doing, and then shop for a new one, you'll know a lot better then, what you are looking for.
P.S. there's also a case dealer on Sao miguel- case backhoes are quite popular in the U. S.
I'd be looking for something like these machines, if I were in your shoes.
1998 CASE 580SLE For Sale in Cuneo, Cn
1998 CASE 580SLE For Sale in Cuneo, Cn at MachineryTrader.com. BENNA 4/1 BRACCIO TELESCOPICO CERTIFICATO CE MANUALE USO MANUTENZIONE OMOLOGAZIONE STRADALE
2012 CASE 580T For Sale in Hamilton
2012 CASE 580T For Sale in Hamilton at MachineryTrader.com. 2012 CASE 580T BACKHOE / 3 x BUCKETS / AS NEW CONDITION / 470 HOURS
2006 CATERPILLAR 428E For Sale in Market Bosworth, England
2006 CATERPILLAR 428E For Sale in Market Bosworth, England at MachineryTrader.com. Caterpillar 428E 300,450,600,900,Ditching bucket buckets included This machine is absolutely fantastic condition, one owner from new who is a small builder No faults, no leaks.
I threw in the 2012 one just because it was such a low hour machine.
Something under 4-5,000 hours or so, it would be nice if it came with a couple different buckets and forks. You haven't mentioned if you need a breaker or not, but I'd want one plumbed for a breaker, and 4x4.
If you can spend $30,000 or so on a nice used one, it gives you a lot of money for any repairs, and you don't have to learn on a brand new machine.
Buy used and learn for a couple years what you are doing, and then shop for a new one, you'll know a lot better then, what you are looking for.
crane operator
Senior Member
If you go on Machinery trader, you can search by brand, years, country, etc. I just specified backhoe, and picked a couple european countries.
skyking1
Senior Member
Those still have pesky electronics to corrode.
My advise considering your location and population is to buy at least 2 older machines around 25 years old.
You might get 3 for €100k.
With 3 indentical machines,you’ll just about manage 100% availability and you can simply canibilise each one over the years until you end up with none.
2 or 3 loader backhoes would be a headache,but only one would be a nightmare
You might get 3 for €100k.
With 3 indentical machines,you’ll just about manage 100% availability and you can simply canibilise each one over the years until you end up with none.
2 or 3 loader backhoes would be a headache,but only one would be a nightmare
Legdoc
Senior Member
If I was in your situation I would hold out for a pre emission Case, Cat or Deere depending on parts availability. As an example my 2004 Case 580M series1 is stupid simple, a few relays, no emission BS and only 1,000 easy hours. It was purchased new for ranch use and is a barn queen. One like it would be a rare find but I occasionally see older well kept units online. They do fetch a high price though. Get a lot of Corrosion X and wash it regularly with Holdtite.
Being on a remote island, and not a mechanic, there's not a great answer. What machinery have you operated before? what kind of work do you expect to do? is the market there to pay for a new machine or three used ones?
I would never suggest this otherwise, but given the circumstances, I'd suggest a used farm tractor (90's or so with virtually zero electronics) and three point backhoe, that almost seems like the most reliable solution. If a more specialized machine is justified, three used JCB's. Or a farm tractor and mini excavator.
Unless you can talk to customers on the other islands that are satisfied with the service from the local dealers on new equipment, I'd hate to take the risk of new when the warranty could be useless because of transport costs.
I would never suggest this otherwise, but given the circumstances, I'd suggest a used farm tractor (90's or so with virtually zero electronics) and three point backhoe, that almost seems like the most reliable solution. If a more specialized machine is justified, three used JCB's. Or a farm tractor and mini excavator.
Unless you can talk to customers on the other islands that are satisfied with the service from the local dealers on new equipment, I'd hate to take the risk of new when the warranty could be useless because of transport costs.
JL Sargent
Senior Member
So it looks like your island Flores is about 1200 miles from Lisbon. Which is crazy far, but you are in the middle of the ocean. I found these guys selling John Deere equipment (including construction) in Portugal and in several cities including Lisbon.
Moviter Equipamentos S.A has five sales and service locations across Portugal (Leiria, Lisbon, Oporto, Évora and Funchal)
Moviter Equipamentos S.A has five sales and service locations across Portugal (Leiria, Lisbon, Oporto, Évora and Funchal)