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Pics of the Deere High Speed Dozer from Conexpo.
- Thread starter Matt McGowan
- Start date
Matt McGowan
Active Member
bushcat
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the good pics Matt.
Squizzy246B
Administrator
This machine has already been hung, drawn & quartered
https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=1849
Well why not just use a grader:beatsme
https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=1849
Well why not just use a grader:beatsme
Burnout
Senior Member
What does a good grader cost these days? Or a grader operator? And do you need the adjustability of a grader? You could pull a compactor with it, small scraper, good flotation with it.
I think it was said in another thread about it... but if Caterpillar designed it you would all say its fantastic and the newest thing to hit the market. Look at 10-15 years ago. Deere was one of the only companies still building wheeled excavators and they finally canned the 595D's in 98. Now everyone is building em. Just because it didn't come out of Peoria doesn't mean it doesn't have its uses.
I think it was said in another thread about it... but if Caterpillar designed it you would all say its fantastic and the newest thing to hit the market. Look at 10-15 years ago. Deere was one of the only companies still building wheeled excavators and they finally canned the 595D's in 98. Now everyone is building em. Just because it didn't come out of Peoria doesn't mean it doesn't have its uses.
Deas Plant
Senior Member
Proof of the pudding??????????????????????????
Hi, Burnout.
I'm a Cat fan from way back but NOT blind to the good gear from other makers. I'd guess it might be a little while before we get to see many of these jiggers working DownUnder, probably because JD doesn't seem to have the livliest of dealer presences around this way. So I'll just have to wait to see them in action.
However, a couple of thoughts do come to mind.
One: Undercarriage life - "deere rep said undercarriage should last 3,000 hours" - so what is it going to cost to re-build it then? Bearing in mind that yoy have 4, that is F-O-U-R, assemblies to re-build. And it's not uncommon these days for Cat SALT track to go beyond those hours before re-build. Anyone got a cost comparison yet?
Two: Apparent limited usage - you can take a D6 of any series straight from dirt to rock to clearing timber to demolition. Where can you take the 754 other than into dirt and on bitumen roads? I doubt Mum would appreciate the jigger driving around the front lawn.
Please understand that I am NOT knocking the jigger, just posing questions.
Hi, Burnout.
I'm a Cat fan from way back but NOT blind to the good gear from other makers. I'd guess it might be a little while before we get to see many of these jiggers working DownUnder, probably because JD doesn't seem to have the livliest of dealer presences around this way. So I'll just have to wait to see them in action.
However, a couple of thoughts do come to mind.
One: Undercarriage life - "deere rep said undercarriage should last 3,000 hours" - so what is it going to cost to re-build it then? Bearing in mind that yoy have 4, that is F-O-U-R, assemblies to re-build. And it's not uncommon these days for Cat SALT track to go beyond those hours before re-build. Anyone got a cost comparison yet?
Two: Apparent limited usage - you can take a D6 of any series straight from dirt to rock to clearing timber to demolition. Where can you take the 754 other than into dirt and on bitumen roads? I doubt Mum would appreciate the jigger driving around the front lawn.
Please understand that I am NOT knocking the jigger, just posing questions.
Squizzy246B
Administrator
That is correct, there is a number of utility applications such a machine would excell at. Grading at 6mph might be best left to a dedicated machine though. I suggested (without snow experience) in the other thread that this might be a good snow plowing machine?.
I'm not sure where that came from or why the Cat Vs..??? stuff came from.?? Personally I don't give a toss who designed it...I stand by my comments in the other thread and question what is the actual target market Deere is aiming at.
BTW, I only one piece of Cat equipment and am currently negotiating to buy my second Japanese excavator.
Construct'O
Senior Member
I have Cat and Deere equipment.As far as the tracks that is a concern,because of there make up rubber!
I have a CTL(Deere) and the rubber tracks are a big issue and the hours quote isn't adding up near close to the saleman quote of hours that they will last before rebuild.
Also Cat has had a machine close to this design for some time.Which is the 815 and 825 compactors.They just don't have the rubber track system,but sure with just a little redesigning that Cat could easyly come out with one conpairable to Deeres.
I think there is places where the machine would be useful.But time will tell the story better.
Not everyone is anti this or that ,they just look at a machine for at how it will make money and how fast ,along with it's usefulness.Or at Least i try too.I do admit the blinders do come on at times
,i hate to say.Good luck:usa
farm_boy
Senior Member
OK....here is the skinny on this tractor.
It seems like customers either "get it" or don't. You have to keep in mind that this is totally new machine form that is intended to capitalize on the advancements in machine control systems. This tractor is not intended to totally replace ALL functions of a grader or ALL functions of a dozer. No it will not last in heavy rock applications nor will it perform will against a 160M in hogging mass amounts of dirt. It will however offer contractors a distinct advantage in production and fuel consumption in the last phases of a road building or site development job (or many other medium dozing or fine grading applications).
If you take a look at the equipment used 40, 30, 20, or even 10 years ago. Many of the technologies that are available today (and tomorrow) weren't available. With the rising production costs associated with moving dirt these days there are opportunities to do more with less. The tried and true methods of finished grading have built in limitations when pushing the limits of production. Steel crawlers by design are limited on grading speed and mobility. Graders are extremely versatile in a variety of different applications but have a relatively high initial purchase and typically require a highly skilled operator to achieve the desired finish grade results. Then take into consideration sandy soil conditions that are too soft for a grader and take a significant toll on steel undercarriage life. These are the problems that a new machine form can address without any "baggage" of prior designs.
There have been some skeptics out there about the grading speed. Keep in mind that with four tracks, each on their own pivot frame, bogey mid rollers and a total of 12 degrees of side to side track oscillation the tractor provides a rock solid foundation for precision blade movements. Much more stable than a grader (with rubber tires and a frame that can "duck walk" providing instability in grade) and a steel track tractor that the tracks provide a rough ride and provides a break over pivot point in that the whole machines pivots about. None of these are exhibited by the HSD. A manual rough grade CAN easily be held at 6 MPH and with the correct grade control system extremely tight tolerances can be held at up to 6 MPH as well. You can't hog dirt at this speed, but you're not going to be hogging and finish grading at the same time anyway. Because this machine offers the best platform for GPS and/or laser assisted finish grading control Deere's IGC will be standard equipment. Offering a true plug and play set up for Trimble or Topcon.
Operator comfort is another area that this machine excels when compared to steel track machines. The rubber undercarriage provides an exceptional ride when compared to a steel track unit, plus at higher speeds you have a front and rear suspension for a fully suspended tractor. All controls are EH and are mounted to the seat so they move with the operator. The visibility is unlike anything else either since the operator is sitting on the front of the tractor right behind the blade. Yes I know there are comments about the rear articulation, but isn't this the same as any grader (sans Case)? There is an articulation gauge in the cab to let the operator know where the rear end of the machine is, just like a grader.
As far as being like the CIH quad track. This machine is NOT an agriculture tractor and was never intended to be. With that being said there are several small contractors out there that also have sizeable farms. Who's to say that it wouldn't make sense to them for this machine to pull double duty? Nothing saying they can't, but it wasn't a major consideration upon the design of the machine form. At 200 HP it was never intended to compete with the STX, Challenger or 9030 series scraper tractors. Can it pull a small (9-13 cu yd) dolly wheel pan.....yes and it can quite well, but it was never meant be to a dedicated scraper puller. Think of the drawbar on this machine as a quick coupler on a wheel loader. It doesn't define the main purpose of the machine but only adds to the versatility of the overall package. For those of you out there have had significantly low hour failures on the STX machines and have drawn the same conclusions to this system, although the systems appear to be the same, there are several significant differences between the two that promote higher undercarriage life in the 764.
1. HP - Most scraper versions of the STX are 450-530 HP. The HSD is less than half of this power meaning that the power transmission into the tracks is a LOT less. Most of the time the STX's are performing heavy drawbar applications (loading pans) and most of this power is getting transmitted into the tracks to load pans as quickly as possible. The majority of applications that this machine was design for was high speed grading, meaning higher speeds at lower draw bar pull rates.
2. Transmission - The STX has a direct drive transmission that allows almost 100% of engine power and torque to be placed directly into the tracks. Unless the transmission is shifted or the clutch is dumped there is nothing limiting the power going to the track system. The 764 has a hydrostatic system with power management out of the J-series crawlers. The system is constantly adjusting the correct amount of speed and torque applied to the tracks without overloading them.
3. Track drive system - Due to the amount of HP and drawbar loads being placed into to STX tracks they operate as a positive drive (pulling on the drive lugs) almost all of the time. The 764 operates primarily as a friction drive using the flat mating surface of the drive hub as the primary drive mechanism. It is not until the 764 approaches the limits of it drawbar pull does the system act as a positive drive system and pulls on the lugs. The friction drive promotes much better track life without the risk of tracks slipping inside the drive hub (ie Challenger and 9030T's).
3000 hours is the average number and Deere is backing this up with a wear assurance similar to what they offer on their SC-II and Max Life undercarriage and also what Cat offers on their System One.
Think of this tractor to be a lot like moving dirt with a scraper tractor and pans. There are obviously places where that system won't work, but in the many places that it does there is a significant savings to be realized. Same thing holds true for this machine. It’s all about using the most efficient tool for the job at hand. By no means will this tractor completely replace the motor grader or steel track crawler dozer, but in certain applications this unit will add utility, mobility and production to a job site that nothing else can.
It seems like customers either "get it" or don't. You have to keep in mind that this is totally new machine form that is intended to capitalize on the advancements in machine control systems. This tractor is not intended to totally replace ALL functions of a grader or ALL functions of a dozer. No it will not last in heavy rock applications nor will it perform will against a 160M in hogging mass amounts of dirt. It will however offer contractors a distinct advantage in production and fuel consumption in the last phases of a road building or site development job (or many other medium dozing or fine grading applications).
If you take a look at the equipment used 40, 30, 20, or even 10 years ago. Many of the technologies that are available today (and tomorrow) weren't available. With the rising production costs associated with moving dirt these days there are opportunities to do more with less. The tried and true methods of finished grading have built in limitations when pushing the limits of production. Steel crawlers by design are limited on grading speed and mobility. Graders are extremely versatile in a variety of different applications but have a relatively high initial purchase and typically require a highly skilled operator to achieve the desired finish grade results. Then take into consideration sandy soil conditions that are too soft for a grader and take a significant toll on steel undercarriage life. These are the problems that a new machine form can address without any "baggage" of prior designs.
There have been some skeptics out there about the grading speed. Keep in mind that with four tracks, each on their own pivot frame, bogey mid rollers and a total of 12 degrees of side to side track oscillation the tractor provides a rock solid foundation for precision blade movements. Much more stable than a grader (with rubber tires and a frame that can "duck walk" providing instability in grade) and a steel track tractor that the tracks provide a rough ride and provides a break over pivot point in that the whole machines pivots about. None of these are exhibited by the HSD. A manual rough grade CAN easily be held at 6 MPH and with the correct grade control system extremely tight tolerances can be held at up to 6 MPH as well. You can't hog dirt at this speed, but you're not going to be hogging and finish grading at the same time anyway. Because this machine offers the best platform for GPS and/or laser assisted finish grading control Deere's IGC will be standard equipment. Offering a true plug and play set up for Trimble or Topcon.
Operator comfort is another area that this machine excels when compared to steel track machines. The rubber undercarriage provides an exceptional ride when compared to a steel track unit, plus at higher speeds you have a front and rear suspension for a fully suspended tractor. All controls are EH and are mounted to the seat so they move with the operator. The visibility is unlike anything else either since the operator is sitting on the front of the tractor right behind the blade. Yes I know there are comments about the rear articulation, but isn't this the same as any grader (sans Case)? There is an articulation gauge in the cab to let the operator know where the rear end of the machine is, just like a grader.
As far as being like the CIH quad track. This machine is NOT an agriculture tractor and was never intended to be. With that being said there are several small contractors out there that also have sizeable farms. Who's to say that it wouldn't make sense to them for this machine to pull double duty? Nothing saying they can't, but it wasn't a major consideration upon the design of the machine form. At 200 HP it was never intended to compete with the STX, Challenger or 9030 series scraper tractors. Can it pull a small (9-13 cu yd) dolly wheel pan.....yes and it can quite well, but it was never meant be to a dedicated scraper puller. Think of the drawbar on this machine as a quick coupler on a wheel loader. It doesn't define the main purpose of the machine but only adds to the versatility of the overall package. For those of you out there have had significantly low hour failures on the STX machines and have drawn the same conclusions to this system, although the systems appear to be the same, there are several significant differences between the two that promote higher undercarriage life in the 764.
1. HP - Most scraper versions of the STX are 450-530 HP. The HSD is less than half of this power meaning that the power transmission into the tracks is a LOT less. Most of the time the STX's are performing heavy drawbar applications (loading pans) and most of this power is getting transmitted into the tracks to load pans as quickly as possible. The majority of applications that this machine was design for was high speed grading, meaning higher speeds at lower draw bar pull rates.
2. Transmission - The STX has a direct drive transmission that allows almost 100% of engine power and torque to be placed directly into the tracks. Unless the transmission is shifted or the clutch is dumped there is nothing limiting the power going to the track system. The 764 has a hydrostatic system with power management out of the J-series crawlers. The system is constantly adjusting the correct amount of speed and torque applied to the tracks without overloading them.
3. Track drive system - Due to the amount of HP and drawbar loads being placed into to STX tracks they operate as a positive drive (pulling on the drive lugs) almost all of the time. The 764 operates primarily as a friction drive using the flat mating surface of the drive hub as the primary drive mechanism. It is not until the 764 approaches the limits of it drawbar pull does the system act as a positive drive system and pulls on the lugs. The friction drive promotes much better track life without the risk of tracks slipping inside the drive hub (ie Challenger and 9030T's).
3000 hours is the average number and Deere is backing this up with a wear assurance similar to what they offer on their SC-II and Max Life undercarriage and also what Cat offers on their System One.
Think of this tractor to be a lot like moving dirt with a scraper tractor and pans. There are obviously places where that system won't work, but in the many places that it does there is a significant savings to be realized. Same thing holds true for this machine. It’s all about using the most efficient tool for the job at hand. By no means will this tractor completely replace the motor grader or steel track crawler dozer, but in certain applications this unit will add utility, mobility and production to a job site that nothing else can.
dayexco
Senior Member
farmboy....VERY well put. it's just like my posts on the rototilt for excavators...it's of no value to me, but i truly can see in other contractor's applications it's very much of a time and labor saver for them. 90% work is typically a 10 mile radius of our shop. always wanted a dozer, but considered it just another thing to haul around. this unit could be easily driven by the operator from jobsite to jobsite. this unit just might fit the bill. can't afford a new one, but will be looking once some come back from lease/trade, etc.
Burnout
Senior Member
I hope you guys didn't confuse my post for anything more than puttin the info out there. I definately see why some people wouldn't think it's going to make an impact on the market, it took me awhile to get the usefullness of this machine. I think that undercarriage will last the hours its claimed to, I was lookin around it and its a beefy unit.
My buddy is a farmer and he has a Deere 8410T Tracked Tractor, a few guys in our area run older challengers and they all scoffed at the Deere unit when it came out, out of the 4 guys that owned challengers, 3 of them now have Deere's. Deere builds a nice undercarriage on their equipment and I think the company is headed in the right directino when it comes to machine advancement.
As for the 815.... well they are decent compactors. We have a few and I tried pushing some dirt with our older one and the torque converter just heated up if you got much more than a wheelbarrow load of dirt in front of it. That blade is really just there for knockin down small clumps in front of you.... now our 836.... that beast will push some dirt!
My buddy is a farmer and he has a Deere 8410T Tracked Tractor, a few guys in our area run older challengers and they all scoffed at the Deere unit when it came out, out of the 4 guys that owned challengers, 3 of them now have Deere's. Deere builds a nice undercarriage on their equipment and I think the company is headed in the right directino when it comes to machine advancement.
As for the 815.... well they are decent compactors. We have a few and I tried pushing some dirt with our older one and the torque converter just heated up if you got much more than a wheelbarrow load of dirt in front of it. That blade is really just there for knockin down small clumps in front of you.... now our 836.... that beast will push some dirt!
Farm Boy,
Couldn't have said it better!
Deas Plant,
Good point about replacement cost, that is the problem with the Case IH quad tracks, very expensive, only time will how undercarriage cost per hour will come out.
Also on your comment about no Deere dealers down under, you are correct, they know it and they are working on it. We went to a Fleet Smart (large customer) meeting last year and they said clearly that the largest growth potential (and Deere weak spot) is over seas, mainly Europe, China, Middle East.
Geno
Couldn't have said it better!
Deas Plant,
Good point about replacement cost, that is the problem with the Case IH quad tracks, very expensive, only time will how undercarriage cost per hour will come out.
Also on your comment about no Deere dealers down under, you are correct, they know it and they are working on it. We went to a Fleet Smart (large customer) meeting last year and they said clearly that the largest growth potential (and Deere weak spot) is over seas, mainly Europe, China, Middle East.
Geno
Tigerotor77W
Senior Member
farm_boy -- good analysis... will look forward to this on jobsites.
farm_boy
Senior Member
Lashlander
Senior Member
Its a John Deere high drive!:lmao
Deas Plant
Senior Member
Business Arising. . . . . . . .
Hi, Farm Boy.
That seems like a pretty good analysis of the jigger, now let's see if it can live up to the various claims made for it.
As for graders not working in sand, that depends very much on the operator and his understanding of his machine. Having said that, there can also be quite noticeable differences between any two machines of the same make and model. At one time, I was running a Cat 140G on a sand job with 2 other 140G's, boundary riding for a fleet of 12 Cat 631 scrapers. Regardless of who was running it, the 140G that I was mostly on would do things in the sand that the other 2 wouldn't. Radial ply tires and water filled tires with minimal pressure both make a worthwhile difference. So does 6 wheel drive.
Both 'Kummagutsa' and bigger Fiat-Allis graders have the operator station on the rear and the front articulates, although I must confess it's been a while since I last saw a F-A grader.
Construct'O, the Cat machines closest to this jigger would be the 814 and 824 which are dedicated 4wd articulated dozers. The 815 and 825 are sheepsfoot compactors and don't have the same continuous loaded pushing ability that the wheel dozers have. The 816, 826 and 836 are the garbage compactor versions of this family of machines.
Speculation can be either fun or frustrating, sometimes both. I look forward to seeing some on-the-job reports about this jigger.
Hi, Farm Boy.
That seems like a pretty good analysis of the jigger, now let's see if it can live up to the various claims made for it.
As for graders not working in sand, that depends very much on the operator and his understanding of his machine. Having said that, there can also be quite noticeable differences between any two machines of the same make and model. At one time, I was running a Cat 140G on a sand job with 2 other 140G's, boundary riding for a fleet of 12 Cat 631 scrapers. Regardless of who was running it, the 140G that I was mostly on would do things in the sand that the other 2 wouldn't. Radial ply tires and water filled tires with minimal pressure both make a worthwhile difference. So does 6 wheel drive.
Both 'Kummagutsa' and bigger Fiat-Allis graders have the operator station on the rear and the front articulates, although I must confess it's been a while since I last saw a F-A grader.
Construct'O, the Cat machines closest to this jigger would be the 814 and 824 which are dedicated 4wd articulated dozers. The 815 and 825 are sheepsfoot compactors and don't have the same continuous loaded pushing ability that the wheel dozers have. The 816, 826 and 836 are the garbage compactor versions of this family of machines.
Speculation can be either fun or frustrating, sometimes both. I look forward to seeing some on-the-job reports about this jigger.
Squizzy246B
Administrator
Thanks FarmBoy:thumbsup:thumbsup
redline
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 201
- Location
- Caboolture south east Queensland
- Occupation
- Plant operator and Tenkate plant hire
will be very interesting to see how they cope on the job site, sure would be a handy machine with a small stickrake for cleaning up brush. I am not a deere fan but i think they have a good machine there.