Picking a NEW CTL, Deere, Kubota, NH, Bobcat, Cat?

[AMBMike]

I wouldn't avoid a machine just because it has a DEF emission system. Nearly all our machines and all but one of our trucks run DEF and they're mostly trouble free.
Two of our Kubota 97-2s have had work done on the DEF system under warranty and one of our dump trucks.
I'm personally running a one year old Cat 299D3 with 1200 hours that to date has been trouble free other than a blown hose and a loose fitting missed at PDI. Neither of these issues were DEF related. I realize the machine is just broken in and I could have issues tomorrow.
I have friends who purchased smaller machines than they needed to avoid DEF then ended up abusing the machine trying to do the work of the larger one. In every case they ended up trading the machine back for the larger DEF equipped machine in under a year and regretted the wasted time.

I know there are horror stories out there and it's true that every now and then there's a machine that is a lemon. This was true before the advent of DEF and electronic controls as well.
I believe that for every machine out there that has ongoing problems there are at least several that experience almost none. It's also true that the newer machines need operated differently than we did 25 years ago. As far as I know all new machines come with an owners/operators manual. I recommend reading each one.

These are my opinions.
My opinion and $0.25 used to buy a cup of coffee. I think you need $2.00 or more with or without my opinion to buy a coffee now ..

 

[HarleyHappy]

We had the same issue when HD brought out the M8 motor.
Quieter, quicker, liquid cooled and HD was blasted and the internet made it seem like they all sumped oil and they were junk.
The first year or two, they had a few issues and yes a few lemons but the majority were fine. It’s always the nay sayers that yell the loudest.
I had one, was a good bike, went back into a Twinkie because I like fuel injection and like working on my bikes and tourqing them up.
No need on an M8, most would take me off the line. The builders that were tuning the M8 were getting stupid numbers on the dyno.
While for HE, I prefer no computers and no DEF, one day I may change my mind.
For now on bikes, I will run a Shovelhead and a Revolution and strip my Twinkie and run that on the track, no reasonably stock M8 can touch that.
The dyna on it is extremely impressive.
Fuel injection was the game changer for HD’s for me.
No choke, start it up on a 35 degree morning and go.

 

[fortworth-cowboy]

The Bosch system has been way more problematic than Delphi. The CP4 units that GM, Ford and Ram used for a time in their diesels are the same system. GM stopped in 2015ish. The units that Bosch uses in these systems is very similar I am told to the CP4.

I don't know about that. The Bosch System on the new V2 Engine by Bobcat are pretty good, nothing compared to the Delphi System!

 

[BRProperties]

Easy now. Since you are new here to HEF I'll explain the informal rule of thread hijacking.

I don't agree 100% but,,,, "The Dude Abides"

 

[fortworth-cowboy]

I'm not sure about that. Skid steers and CTL's are known to run best at full throttle and most users know that. Cat put throttle pedals in them because they were very jerky trying to do precision work. Apparently newer models are better. Certain machines are known to have problematic DEF systems and it's not because they are being run at less than full throttle. One just has to read the forums on here to see which models are the most problematic.

On a new CTL worth $70K+ I would expect to get a lot more than 5000 hours before needing to replace the engine. Hydrostat components maybe depending on how hard they are worked but 10,000 hours on the engine shouldn't be hard to achieve with proper maintenance. Kubota engines in Lincoln welders state 10,000 hours before needing major service. That's a very common number for most diesel engines. I'm sure a lot of them go a fair bit beyond that. I put new glow plugs and adjusted the valves (which weren't out much) on my Kubota powered skid steer with 4500 hours and the engine runs as good as the day it was new.

But you compare apples with oranges. The engines you mentioned are running in a welder, where does the welder usually sits---on your truck bed. That is, compare to a loader, a very clean and "shake free" environment. Also you have no drastic RPM changes like when the hydrostatic pump is overloaded or so.
So you can not compare these two scenarios.

And I know a lot of older Operator Owners who do not run their machine at full idle.

 

[Welder Dave]

Slightly different application but 10,000 hours on an industrial diesel engine is the norm rather than the exception. Many go longer. A welder still requires a certain HP and needs to maintain that HP and speed to work properly. Using a welder to it's full potential puts just as much load on the engine as a hydrostat transmission. Do some gouging with a welder and it will certainly make it bark. If you exceed the duty cycle you're more likely to hurt the welding end than the engine.

Operators who don't run their skid steers at full throttle are misinformed. It's also harder on the hydrostat components especially when doing heavier work.

 

[HarleyHappy]

Well, I guess I better not ever buy a DEF unit because I never run equipment at full rpm’s unless I need it.
I wear ear plugs most times and don’t like machines running wide open, especially if the power isn’t needed.
On certain machines, even my Kubota, they get a little too jerky when running wide open and are difficult to operate cleanly.

 

[materthegreater]

Well, I guess I better not ever buy a DEF unit because I never run equipment at full rpm’s unless I need it.
I wear ear plugs most times and don’t like machines running wide open, especially if the power isn’t needed.
On certain machines, even my Kubota, they get a little too jerky when running wide open and are difficult to operate cleanly.

Kubotas are always jerky

 

[HarleyHappy]

That’s okay, I always feel like a friggin bobble head running one anyway. lol

 

[Welder Dave]

I ran an early Cat that was really jerky too at full throttle for precision work. It had a throttle pedal because it needed it. I could pick up eggs without breaking them with my skid steer at full throttle. It's not about needing the power. It is much easier on hydrostatic pumps and motors to be run at full throttle. It's the whole point of having a hydrostatic drive. With DEF it's probably even more critical.

 

[HarleyHappy]

Well Dave, you can run your non DEF machine at full throttle, me being in the states, it’s a free country and I will pass on that.

 

[Welder Dave]

Not trying to argue, everybody can run at whatever throttle they want. I've been told by hydraulic shops hydrostatic transmissions get longest life and are most efficient at full throttle. I thought with DEF you don't want to bog the engine unnecessarily and it's easier to bog at lower throttle. You also have faster response to control movements at full throttle.

 

[Georgia Iron]

Not trying to argue, everybody can run at whatever throttle they want. I've been told by hydraulic shops hydrostatic transmissions get longest life and are most efficient at full throttle. I thought with DEF you don't want to bog the engine unnecessarily and it's easier to bog at lower throttle. You also have faster response to control movements at full throttle.

I run half throttle on my tl150, I have never ran it at wot. The belts will squeal.

I can get almost 2 days out of a full tank at 1/2 throttle. My case is lucky to get a full day on a tank.

All def machines require high heat to burn out the soot, hence wide open throttle. If you run them at half throttle they will clog the sensors and give you issues in short time. Fuel cost is probably 25% more in the newer machines plus def fluid.

I have wondered about Ford's new 2kw power on board in the 6.7 power strokes. I was told to try to not leave the truck idling. So how does that work running power tools of the system?

 

[Welder Dave]

I thought DEF needs high heat as well. I think there's something wrong if your belts squeal at full throttle. At half throttle I would think you'd have slow response to the drive and implement hydraulics as well as a decrease in power. It would be interesting to see what other operators set the throttle at in skid steers and CTL's. Even hydrostat dozers and track loaders.

 

[Laurence Delgadillo]

hi, can any one help me with the year of manufacturing of a D7G, serial number 92V06855

 

[Welder Dave]

Only ask in one thread.

 

[Laurence Delgadillo]

Sorry, I will from now

 

[hseII]

Does fine fully loaded turning but the weight leaves some pretty heavy disturbance if you pivot 180. Wouldn't want to do it on grass if you wanted any left. I've worked it hard and have stalled it once. The only time I feel it's underpowered is working steep grades with a full load. My TV450 was faster on steep grades. With that said the TV650 is moving a lot more material. The other thing I've noticed is it great for grading flat pads. Not only the amount of material I can move but the weight and longer track length makes a huge difference. Bucket edge never pulls down and just keeps on pushing. With that said this machine is not for everyone but perfect for what I'm doing. I would not want it if I were moving it a lot job to job or had to worry about tight access or property disturbance. I scaled it out fully fueled with the bucket at 16,800 lbs. Add my brush cutter and grapple or tree puller and I'm at 20k.

A couple of videos pushing dirt with it
Cleaning out some dirt piles from a recent building we put up.

Pushing hard pack clay into a new pond bottom

What part of the country?

 

[KSSS]

I have a 620B on rent right now, and have for about a month. Its about the same as our DL550 Minitour but it typically doesn't run with the bucket much. We have been using the 620B to load trucks an move material around. Super impressive, she is a little thirsty, but when you factor in the amount of material it moves it makes sense. Everyone likes running it. Always the first choice.

 

[CaseFan13]

I have a 620B on rent right now, and have for about a month. It’s about the same as our DL550 Minitour but it typically doesn't run with the bucket much. We have been using the 620B to load trucks a move material around. Super impressive, she is a little thirsty, but when you factor in the amount of material it moves it makes sense. Everyone likes running it. Always the first choice.

Is the difference in tipping capacity noticeable? I’ve considered trading our 620 for a 550 but am semi concerned about the capacity difference. 1,400 pounds can be a lot when loading a truck downhill or when sneaking out over a trench or other excavation to dump stone