Shimmy1
Senior Member
It's easy as pie with a smartphone. But if you don't have one, then I guess it's not.
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Over my head!
- Thread starter Pettiboner
- Start date
It's easy as pie with a smartphone. But if you don't have one, then I guess it's not.
mitch504
Senior Member
This is Grandpa we're talking about. :beatsme
Pettiboner
Well-Known Member
I did the google thing that fixou suggested and got the contact for.......Tiffin Parts......that Mowing man suggested. Thanks to both of you. So I phoned them and they are researching the filter for me. That said, do you guys think the filter will fix the growling in the hoe hydraulics?
caterpillarmech
Senior Member
The filters will help in the long run but , I doubt that is the problem. What kind of power does the boom have? The line that vibrates, is it from the loader control valve to the hoe valve? Sounds like a valve is stuck. Can you post up model and a serial number?
ol' Grump
Well-Known Member
If the front loader is quiet and smooth but the backhoe end is giving the noise, I'd suspect either worn cylinders, a valve(s) worn internally or even possibly loose linkage allowing valve(s) to "chatter". Is the noise more pronounced in one function more than another? Boom up/down, stick in/out, bucket curl/uncurl or side to side swing? Same thing with lowering/raising the stabilizers? Joystick controls or sticks for the backhoe?
Pettiboner
Well-Known Member
The old 'beast' is a 1973 Pettibone Model B-417. Serial# 7310001
The boom power is ok, it'll dig, lift itself, push the machine up off the ground etc. The line that is vibrating IS the one from the loader control to the backhoe control.
The noise is only under load, performing ANY lifting or swinging functions on any hoe components. Relaxing or lowering motions are quiet if done slowly. Lifting movements are loud and get louder the faster or harder you push. The controls are push/pull sticks, curl, crowd, swing, lift and stabilizers and yes the stabilizers growl too. Those two cylinders are new.
A neighbor told me to stick a dime under the relief valve in the cartridge. That did not help, made it louder and bent the dime!! (Crazy right?)
Thanks for your interest guys. Any ideas?
The boom power is ok, it'll dig, lift itself, push the machine up off the ground etc. The line that is vibrating IS the one from the loader control to the backhoe control.
The noise is only under load, performing ANY lifting or swinging functions on any hoe components. Relaxing or lowering motions are quiet if done slowly. Lifting movements are loud and get louder the faster or harder you push. The controls are push/pull sticks, curl, crowd, swing, lift and stabilizers and yes the stabilizers growl too. Those two cylinders are new.
A neighbor told me to stick a dime under the relief valve in the cartridge. That did not help, made it louder and bent the dime!! (Crazy right?)
Thanks for your interest guys. Any ideas?
melben
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2008
- Messages
- 1,029
- Location
- Williamsport, Pa
- Occupation
- Retired 50 Yrs with Case dealership
You need to quit listening to any neighbor or pretend expert about messing with or adding dimes to relief valve springs. Relief springs are usually stiff enough and adjusted to hold thousands of PSI. The thickness of a dime could easily put a needed relief completely out of operation at any reasonable pressure. There is a precise procedure for adjusting the valves on the hoe bank and some are high pressure secondaries which operate above main relief requiring oil to be forced back through them with an external pump to adjust them. Blown hoses and split pumps and bent cylinder rods are a result of dinking with relief valves.
A word to the wise................get professional help before you create major problems(expense).
A word to the wise................get professional help before you create major problems(expense).
Pettiboner
Well-Known Member
Roger that melben! Exactly the conclusion I came to before thinking perhaps there was better advice to be had here, which, happily, I am finding to be true.
Oldiron
Well-Known Member
If you don't have this solved yet it could be a power beyond valve problem that should be where the pressure line exits the loader valve
Pettiboner
Well-Known Member
Thanks OldIron. I am beginning to suspect the same thing from other reading I have been doing. That will be what I look at next. Do you know where I might get more specific info on power beyond valves? It seems that rudimentary diagrams are abundant but specific 'how it works' info is tough to get.
hookedondiesel
Senior Member
My ques would be the rear spool for the backhoe.
Half of it is transferring/passing oil as it should, the other half ( that controls your stabilizers and dipper) is probably still clogged with junk and not allowing proper oil flow.
The stabilizer want's to work, but it just isn't getting the flow it needs.
Half of it is transferring/passing oil as it should, the other half ( that controls your stabilizers and dipper) is probably still clogged with junk and not allowing proper oil flow.
The stabilizer want's to work, but it just isn't getting the flow it needs.
As far as I know, a power beyond valve is just the first valve in the series that is set up to allow pressurized oil to the next valve. The power beyond valve just has another port to supply the other valve bank (backhoe) and a plug to block the return flow. When assembled they function like they are one valve bank (except the first one has priority if it's in use).
I would guess the problem is in the loader valves. You could try operating one function from each to see if you can get the backhoe to operate quietly by moving the loader valves slightly off center. With a 40 year old machine, take nothing for granted. The linkages could be holding something up a little. Broken return spring in one of the caps.
Also, you said the return from the backhoe goes to a filter canister with no filter. Does the loader return also go through this canister, or straight to the tank? That could be significant to the functioning somehow. I'm assuming this is a gear pump hydraulic pump, could you post a pic of the pump, or just confirm that it looks like a typical gear pump, not a piston pump. And when you say the supply goes to the loader valve and then to the backhoe valve, does it go in one end of the loader valve and out the other, and then on to the backhoe valve?
I would guess the problem is in the loader valves. You could try operating one function from each to see if you can get the backhoe to operate quietly by moving the loader valves slightly off center. With a 40 year old machine, take nothing for granted. The linkages could be holding something up a little. Broken return spring in one of the caps.
Also, you said the return from the backhoe goes to a filter canister with no filter. Does the loader return also go through this canister, or straight to the tank? That could be significant to the functioning somehow. I'm assuming this is a gear pump hydraulic pump, could you post a pic of the pump, or just confirm that it looks like a typical gear pump, not a piston pump. And when you say the supply goes to the loader valve and then to the backhoe valve, does it go in one end of the loader valve and out the other, and then on to the backhoe valve?
Pettiboner
Well-Known Member
Thanks HookedOnDiesel. I will consider that too.
Sorry MadDog. Failure is not my strong suit. From the reading I have done on this forum I know there are lots of smart and savvy enthusiasts who are happy to help. I will plug away at it. I have a lathe, a welder, plenty of duct tape and lots of time.
Sorry MadDog. Failure is not my strong suit. From the reading I have done on this forum I know there are lots of smart and savvy enthusiasts who are happy to help. I will plug away at it. I have a lathe, a welder, plenty of duct tape and lots of time.
Pettiboner
Well-Known Member
Thanks Delmer. I think you are right. In fact, once while I was digging I had occassion to reach around and lift the loader while I was stretching the boom. The noise quit but I am not sure if the movement also quit because I wasnt watching the boom. I assumed that the loader circuit robbed the pressure and that was it but I remember thinking it might be significant. The pump is a gear pump. Big bugger about 10" diameter, slightly oval.
The return hose from the loader controls goes directly back to the tank, not through the filter cannister. Hmmmm.
Not sure about the physical configuration of the loader valve. I will have to look at it when I am next in the same town as my machine. That will be February.
You have given me some great clues here and I really appreciate it. Thanks.
The return hose from the loader controls goes directly back to the tank, not through the filter cannister. Hmmmm.
Not sure about the physical configuration of the loader valve. I will have to look at it when I am next in the same town as my machine. That will be February.
You have given me some great clues here and I really appreciate it. Thanks.
Pettiboner
Well-Known Member
OKAY! SO.....Filter installed. Re plumbed supply directly from pump to backhoe control bypassing loader all together. Plugged main relief by gutting it and installing a carriage bolt through the center. Noise and vibration still here and seems to be coming from the pump. Pump is a Denison. Anyone have any experience rebuidiing one of these?
If the loader ran smooth and powerful then I would think the pump is fine. If the backhoe return flow was somehow getting air into the reservoir without the loader return doing the same thing, that might cause cavitation only when using the backhoe. Cavitation is the most common thing that would cause the chattering, and you'd feel it in the pump and pressure lines.
Or there could still be something wrong with the backhoe valve? haven't seen that yet...
Or there could still be something wrong with the backhoe valve? haven't seen that yet...
Pettiboner
Well-Known Member
Hi Delmer. Thanks for your continued interest. I agree with all of your logic. My thinking at this point however is guided by the fact that the pump is 40 years old and could surely use a peak inside anyway particularly since its been getting this beating for some time. Also. I have been told that it is a vane pump and that they are notorious for this behaviour when the flights wear down, so, based on that, and that the removal of the pump will allow access to replace the supply line to the pump and rule out any gremlins there, we are rolling up our sleeves and GOIN' IN! Wish me luck!
Pettiboner
Well-Known Member
Well the update is that when I get laid off work in October I am going to rebuild that darn pump! But I did change the transmission oil when I had a free day last month! What an ordeal THAT was. The book calls for Allison type C2 (which turns out to be delo 400 30 weight according to Allison) but it had red oil (dexron?) in it. I found a great source for the Allison Transmission manual though, FREE. Lots of other old iron manuals too. Www.numeralkod.com