On Going Problem

[Impact]

I seem to always battle the same ongoing problems. I thought maybe some input from others may help. Let me try and explain. I tend to get long winded, so my apologies in advance.

I build grain storage tanks and grain handling equipment, both commercial and on the larger farms. Some of the smallest storage tanks I build are 30,000 bushels or so. The largest I've built holds 600,000. I'm bidding on some that hold over a million bushels. Grain weighs 56-60 pounds per bushel. Figure it up..There's a lot of weight on the ground..60 million pounds. Needless to say, the foundation has to be right.

Manufacturers of grain storage tanks offer different foundation designs based on different soil conditions. But, all of their designs state the normal ..They're not responsible, these are just guidelines. Depending on the size of the tanks, their designs are based on soil bearing capacities of 3,000# per square foot, up to 5,000# per square foot. The small 30,000 bushel tanks haven't been a concern, but, the larger tanks are. Typically the basic foundation design is an Inverted T. A footing around the perimeter, 5-12' wide reinforced with rebar, then a wall on top of the footing 15" wide and 2-8' tall.

This part of the country where I live and work doesn't have rock. Clay dirt is typical. We're loacted between the Mississippi, Ohio, and Tennessee Rivers. There's a lot of low lying bottom type ground that has filled in for millions of years. I know from experience 3,500# soil bearing capacities is hard to achieve. There's several locations I've uilt on that were at 1,000# or less.

The right way to do a project is to start with soil borngs. Soil boring reports come back and to me it's mostly jibberish. I'm a contractor, not an engineer. I like the borings to be overseen by a reputable engineering firm,who reads and interprets the reports, then tells me how to build the foundation based on the actual soil consitions of the site.

Some of these larger tanks cost well over a million dollars. Engineering and soil borings cost $5,000-10,000 depending on the scope of work. I'm a simpleton, but, it's a no brainer. DO the soil borings. But, time after time after time, the people want to proceed without the soil borings. WHY would they balk at this? I just don't get it.

(cont)

 

[Impact]

Here's a description of the latest fiasco I'm involved in.

The storage tank is 78' in diameter. Overall height is right at 100'. Holds 320,000 bushels of grain, roughly 20 million pounds. The site is suspect from the beginning. The site has a small creek running through it. The site is bottom ground. Water stands on the site.

I've worked for this guy before. Started off with 50,000 bushels tank. They keep growing, and the tanks keep getting bigger. At 100,000 bushel tanks, I pleaded my case on the soil borings. Owner refused. I've got statements in my contract that should hold me harmless in the event of a failure, but, you guys know how our court systems are...Get the attornies and insurance companies involved...EVERYONE will be in court.

Anyhow, Again, I push for soil borings. Again he refuses, assuring me, THIS is GREAT ground to build on. We excavate the footings, and 1/2 of the site turns to a loblolly. The other half stays firm. Drive a piece of equipment across the ground, and the ground pushes up and pumps, 10' away. We probe the bad side with rods, and in places one man can push a 1/2" rod 4' deep into the ground by hand. I recommend we excavate it out until we hit hard ground, since we had NO soil borings, and don't truly know what's under ground. We dug test holes first. Some of the holes we went 12-14' deep before hitting anything somewhat substantial. Others places it was solid on top. We recommend excavating the entire site out the full 12' deep. Then haul in crushed stone 3-6". Come back with 12" or so of DGA as a fill to choke off the water. Then a layer of filter cloth, then a cheaper sandy red gravel that's used under state highways. I'd rather have crushed stone all the way up, but, there's a cost factor involved.

(cont)

 

[Impact]

The guy cut the big rock tonnage in half. He doesn't use ANY DGA or filter cloth, and he uses a cheaper bank gravel as fill. He gets the first layer in, turns the vibrating drum on, and it almost turns over.

In case you can't tell, I'm frustrated. I HATE seeing people waste money. I HATE everyone thinking they're an expert.

How do I head this off before a job gets to this point?

 

[pointrow]

Personaly I wouldn't do it with out soil bores and an engineer signing off. The liability of someone getting killed from a failure are to great. Your customer will probably find out no one else will build them either with out an engineer getting involved.

My local CooP has had several 105s put up and would not think of not doing it right.

good luck

pointrow

 

[JBGASH]

I would not do it without the proper soil tests and site engineering. You are setting yourself up for a major disaster. they will have a hard time finding anyone else to do it without the proper procedures being done before any ground is broke. Remind your customer that everyone will loose if legal issues come up and he as the owner will be the first in line.

 

[blademan150]

I would of thought the local building dept would have to sign off on the foundation subgrade, around here they inspect yard barns

 

[stumpjumper83]

blademan, usually agricultural is exempt from code restrictions / enforcement.

Impact, you just learned why building codes came into being. Aforementioned farmers silo tips over and kills someone, then come lawyers... Try this with him show him the cost drilling the soil per bushel stored. Pay a soil tech to explain to said farmer what he is doing is about to capsize his silo. Bring over another farmer, maybe a friend or someone else that can talk reason, do you have ag resource people from the state university to help in matters such as this. Last but not least explain it to his banker.

If that doesn't work you need to do one of two things, walk away from the sale, or do it the right way at less profit or possible loss to save the customer relationship. Imagine the phone call after 320k bushels of corn + the silo are ruined...

No business was ever ruined by doing right by the customer, even if they didn't know it at first.

 

[CM1995]

The guy cut the big rock tonnage in half. He doesn't use ANY DGA or filter cloth, and he uses a cheaper bank gravel as fill. He gets the first layer in, turns the vibrating drum on, and it almost turns over.

I'm confused or not comprehending your post. Are you building the silo and someone else is doing the site work or are you the GC from the site work to completed silo?

case you can't tell, I'm frustrated. I HATE seeing people waste money. I HATE everyone thinking they're an expert.

How do I head this off before a job gets to this point?

I understand your frustration, however the projects that I have done over my career involve multiple layers of inspection and review and an engineer -civil, geotechnical, structural, etc are foregone members of the project. I couldn't imagine building a structure like that without soil borings and geotechnical engineering.

So in your area are there no plans review, inspections, local building department approval etc for a structure like this?

To me it sounds like the engineering liability is being somewhat placed on you, which is a very scary situation. As you stated your a contractor and not an engineer, I also share that sentiment. Engineers are paid to design a project and compile a set of plans for the contractor to go by. Everyone shares in the risk. Engineers are paid well for their design and knowledge and contractors are paid for their ability and knowledge to take paper to reality. You shouldn't be taking on the risk of "engineering on the go" when you are not being paid for it.

The best advice I could give you without knowing more of the specifics is an old saying - "I never lost money on a job I didn't get". :cool2

 

[Monte1255]

Stumpjumper
What you said about explaining it to his banker is a very effective tool........ it may seem a bit underhanded at the time, but in the long run he may be glad he did......if for no other reason than to be able to sleep at night.

 

[wosama931b]

Some times its hard to tell when you think solid ground is, one time i saw a well driler lower a casing into the hole, he took the chain off and turned to secure it,
i was standing a few feet away watching, all of a sudden the pipe took off out like a bullit down the hole, the well driller turned around and looked astonished that
the 8" pipe was gone. Some times you just have have to stand your ground, its a hard spot somestime. Good luck, stall as long as you can untill it gets worked out.

 

[Impact]

I'm confused or not comprehending your post. Are you building the silo and someone else is doing the site work or are you the GC from the site work to completed silo?



I understand your frustration, however the projects that I have done over my career involve multiple layers of inspection and review and an engineer -civil, geotechnical, structural, etc are foregone members of the project. I couldn't imagine building a structure like that without soil borings and geotechnical engineering.

So in your area are there no plans review, inspections, local building department approval etc for a structure like this?

To me it sounds like the engineering liability is being somewhat placed on you, which is a very scary situation. As you stated your a contractor and not an engineer, I also share that sentiment. Engineers are paid to design a project and compile a set of plans for the contractor to go by. Everyone shares in the risk. Engineers are paid well for their design and knowledge and contractors are paid for their ability and knowledge to take paper to reality. You shouldn't be taking on the risk of "engineering on the go" when you are not being paid for it.

The best advice I could give you without knowing more of the specifics is an old saying - "I never lost money on a job I didn't get". :cool2

Typically these jobs are negotiated. Not the typical Design/Bidding process/Build/Inspact like you'd see on commercial and governmental building projects. I consider myself the GC, although in reality the Owner acts as his own GC. Typically the Owner contracts the site work and electrical. I've done several building projects Design/Build with great success. Whenever the project is finished, the Owner, myself, and the sub-contractors are all more than 100% happy. I've tried to break into grain storage projects as Design/Build, and the market seems to balk at the idea. Everyone would be better off if it was a Design/Build project.

I typically will contract the project based on certain geotechnical minimums. If the site is suspect, I've insisted on geotechnical work. If it's not, I strongly recommend it anyway. That's worked for me, for the most part. Most people understand, and don't balk at the few thousand dollars it takes to do that. There's always a few that balk though.

I met with an engineer, and an excavation contractor yesterday. Starting now, my proposal will include the geotechnical exploration, and the engineering required to do it right. It won't be optional, it's just part of the package.

 

[Impact]

Agricultural projects are exempt from plan review and inspection processes. The only difference is larger projects within the boundaries of city limits. Even then all that they want is the building permt fees. Never saw an inspector on one of these type of jobs. The only problem I've seen in permitting those jobs was hight restrictions based on dimensions to property lines etc.

 

[Monte1255]

Agricultural projects can have major failures as well. One such case in my area ended up killing a truck driver, structural failure was the cause in that particular incident, that was a grain leg as well. I'm glad to hear you are making the borings mandatory and part of the package.

 

[CM1995]

OK I understand it now. I'm sure you have a detailed contract with the owner that protects you and defines each party's responsibilities and liabilities?

Starting now, my proposal will include the geotechnical exploration, and the engineering required to do it right. It won't be optional, it's just part of the package.

Good idea. Having it included is going in the direction of design build too. You may have to slowly introduce the design build process a component at a time to your customers, until they see the value firsthand.

 

[Impact]

OK I understand it now. I'm sure you have a detailed contract with the owner that protects you and defines each party's responsibilities and liabilities?



Good idea. Having it included is going in the direction of design build too. You may have to slowly introduce the design build process a component at a time to your customers, until they see the value firsthand.

I do...BUT, being the devil's advocate here...I'll paint a picture of reality..

Let's say there's a catostrophic failure. The tank bursts wide open spilling 20 million pounds of grain and twisted steel. Buries a truck driver who has three kids, one handiapped, and a wife with a bum leg, and a bad eye. The owner is facing a loss upward of 2 million. HE may understand our contract, that outlines liabilities and responsibilities, but..Bottom line, he turns it in to his insurance company. They don't want to pay the damages neither. They're looking for the responsible party. They have attornies on retainage ready to argue a case. Before it's over...The owner, myself, my subs, and suppliers ALL end up in a legal entanglement lasting 5 years or more. If it goes to court, no matter how my contract is worded...I forecast the courts would rule that since I have my business sign up stating I'm a professional business specializing in these types of structures, I should have known better.

I say it doesn't matter what the contract says.

 

[willie59]

Before it's over...The owner, myself, my subs, and suppliers ALL end up in a legal entanglement lasting 5 years or more. If it goes to court, no matter how my contract is worded...I forecast the courts would rule that since I have my business sign up stating I'm a professional business specializing in these types of structures, I should have known better.

I say it doesn't matter what the contract says.

My thoughts exactly. Remember, a lady sued McDonalds because coffee was hot [gee...ya think?], and won the case.

Even if you have all the perfect wording in your contract that defines your legal liabilities...you still have to go through the court process to exonerate yourself. It's still a hassle.

 

[CM1995]

I say it doesn't matter what the contract says.

Well yes and no. Unfortunately I have first hand experience with the scenario you have described. The issue was implied warranty of fitness not a catastrophic failure.

As the insurance companies duke it out with one another, your contract with the owner and how it is written is very important. Arbitration clauses can be enforced by a Judge even if the other party skips straight to court. Indemnity clauses and detailed responsibilities of each party are other important aspects of a construction contract. The lawyers will use these items in your contract to compel the other side to abide by the conditions of the contract and from my experience a Judge will rule in favor of the contract conditions.

My point is, a well written contract that jives with your insurance policy and carriers guidelines will go a long way in the defense department should something happen, although when the :shf every person involved in the project will get some on them. A good contract is just another layer of protection coupled with a good insurance policy. It won't keep you out of trouble but give you something to fight with.

 

[JBGASH]

Very well spoken CM. A lawsuit is what it is, so having every Ace in your hand from the begining will enhance your chances of coming out on top or at least from loosing everything that one has worked so hard for to accumulate in life. Another reason to periodically review insurance needs to insure that a your are covered to the best of your ability and current needs.

 

[stock]

Is there not a court tested contract that you can use? may be a government type design and build, or a design novation type. As a specialist contractor you will be deemed to be the competent party and in that role you may be held liable. Now here is a little question .............would you or any one put up a 20 story building on the site without a geo survey??
By advising on the type of foundation without all the info you are ass out to the wind.
Having a properly designed substructure will be cheaper in the long run and from what you have said thus far I would be looking at a piled raft..................

Do a google on this transcona grain elevator failure

 

[Acivil]

It seems like overkill, but I would have an attorney draft a standard form contract to provide you with the best protection possible. Also, it has already been said but I would present the geotech investigation and report as a standard procedure (which it should be) the geotech should work for the owner, NOT you. If the geotech finds that the native soil types/conditions are suitable for the load of the structure, I would proceed but would require that the owner continue to retain their services for construction and material inspection throughout the project to insure that their recommendations are followed. Should the geotech find that the site conditions will not be suitable in their natural state, I would require that the owner retain their services in determining what measures can be taken to improve the site conditions to bear the load. If the native materials cannot be worked into a suitable state, I would require that the owner retain the services of a structural engineer to coordinate with the geotech to design an alternative foundation that will bear the load in the native conditions/materials. I just went through this exact process on a foundation project and ultimately it all worked out for the best. I would also try to estimate the potential cost of a catastrophic failure of one of these structures and make sure your general liability claim limit is high enough to bear it.