Old Iron Electrical, Anything related to electrical dilemma's precomputer.

[od1]

This thread's purpose is to exchange electrical wiring issues and ideas. Hopefully others will join to help others in need. Sharing old schematics, sharing home made upgrades, or just showing off your "reverse engineering" skills.

:usa:canada

 

[od1]

Okay, here's my electrical dilemma.

A few days ago I ran into this problem. I was warming up my old boom lift when the Wisconsin engine just shut off. Since it was running well for several minutes my first instinct was that the alternator wasn't charging the battery so with out checking I went and connected up a 4 amp charger. The charger instantly shorted out.

I then disconnected the batteries leads and tested the battery. All was good there. I then reconnected the charger without being connected to the boom lift and the battery was fine. When I went to reconnect the battery it arced and left a burnt mark on the positive post.

Massive short somewhere! Opened up the control panel and checked out the diodes and they all checked out fine. Examined the wiring harness and bent it around, all seems to be good.

There are 4 breakers and none of them are thrown.

I don't know where to begin, everything runs through solenoids that are connected to one another.

I'm lost, dead in the water. If anyone out there has any input on this please chime in! :Banghead

Thanks in advance,

OD1

 

[Delmer]

Follow the positive battery cable back to the breakers. Massive shorts should be much easier to find than intermittent ones. I found a battery cable once that had rubbed on the frame and wore through the insulation. You'd think this would stop you pretty fast, but this one must have only rubbed when it hit a bump just right, because it had arced it's way impressively through the frame and the cable had no sign of giving up. The truck had randomly had the alternator light and buzzer go on...

 

[od1]

Hi Delmer,

Thanks much for posting a reply. The weird thing is no breakers threw. I had some success today, this is what I did. There is a kill switch under this machine which connects directly to the battery ground. I started at the alternator and pulled the positive lead then threw the kill switch back on. Battery still shorted so I hit the kill switch fast. I did this about 4 times removing wire by wire and got fed up.

So I just looked it all over and decided to rip out all the wiring that ran on the top of the engine. I mapped it out first, maybe 12 connections. I just gave the old wires a visual after pulling them out of their jackets. Nothing was burnt but tons of breaks.

No more shorted battery, but the battery is dead. I put it on a 4 amp charger now and tomorrow I'll give it a test to see if it'll start.

If I ever get the hydraulics going I'll bring this old boom lift in for sandblasting and paint, after that I'll be ripping out all the wiring and will redo it all.

Thanks again for your input, it means a lot.

OD1

 

[Delmer]

Use an ohmeter or test light to test, don't short the battery.

 

[repowerguy]

You can use a light bulb or your test light between the battery post and cable and then eliminate wires one by one or the old shake test until the light goes out.
BTW, is that a Condor in your avatar or a JLG?

 

[od1]

Hey repowerguy,

Man that would have worked. There were a ridiculous amount of connections on this thing. I ended up cutting out the wiring harness that ran over top of the engine's head. Reran everything away from the heat. There are still problems but it's pressure related now.

It's a JLG40F which is almost the same as the Condor. Same valve bodies, joysticks, and drive unit. This one's an early 40F, Bertea valve body. I'm rebuilding it from the ground up. Been a nightmare so far. Rebuilt the Bertea valve body, and the Racine valve body. Also rebuilt the joysticks, and the platform panel. Looks better than new. I added 2 new filters at the rear to help the valve bodies stay fit. This thing only had 2 filters, 1 in the hydraulic tank, and 1 internal filter in the Bertea.

 

[od1]

Hi Delmer,

Thanks for the advice. If I ever get the hydraulics on this working right It'll go in for sand blast and paint. After that every inch of wire and hose will be tossed. It's all been patched and repatched. Nothing can be trusted.

 

[frodomocho1]

On my JD 690B there are so many hanging wires, cut wires, separated wires, burnt bare wires etc. when I turn the key on some gauges go backwards some max out. I just ran a mechanical oil pressure gauge and am finally seeing a 35 pound pressure reading for some peace of mind. Anybody know where I can find a schematic for a 1980 690B?

 

[Willie B]

I always buy the service manual. Old equipment always seems to be butchered in the wiring, bad! Building electrical systems are required by law to leave all connections accessible. Automotive, and machinery are, to me at least, frustrating as they make splices mid harness, have no clear destination for each wire. I find a good schematic very valuable, and often replace a conductor if it has an open or short between two points.

I admit I suffer a small handicap as I suffer from a level of color blindness. Pink, cream, off white, pale grey, and buff look about the same covered with grease.

Willie

 

[lantraxco]

I always buy the service manual. Old equipment always seems to be butchered in the wiring, bad! Building electrical systems are required by law to leave all connections accessible. Automotive, and machinery are, to me at least, frustrating as they make splices mid harness, have no clear destination for each wire. I find a good schematic very valuable, and often replace a conductor if it has an open or short between two points.

I admit I suffer a small handicap as I suffer from a level of color blindness. Pink, cream, off white, pale grey, and buff look about the same covered with grease.

Willie

Try working on old Kenworths... every inch of wire is white, and they put a number tag near the end of the wire, which of course has been cut off when the wire end needed replacing. Fun.

 

[repowerguy]

KW's woohoo! that was a jolt coming from Internationals and finally discovering that the ground was switched to energize the relays! Series parallel switches! what a way to spend a afternoon troubleshooting!

 

[repowerguy]

I was just reading through this thread and saw you were going to sand blast your man lift. Please don't, you will hate life if you do. It seems sand will migrate into EVERY place imaginable and some unimaginable also. Hyd. systems hate silica and it will be years working itself out.
The only thing I would use if pushed to would be Black Beauty, it doesn't seem to travel like penetrating oil into every nook and crany. JMHO.

 

[od1]

Wow thanks for the heads up on that. What is Black Beauty? Never heard of it?

The plan is to restore this back to like new condition and rent / lease it out. So far I have all new hose, wire, control panel, joysticks have been rebuilt too. I thought I'd leave all the old fluids, hoses and wiring on before the blasting. After I'd change the hoses I'd flush the system out with the cheapest hydraulic fluid I could find, then refill it with something good. Only one cylinder is still on there (the main lift cylinder). Here's the problem, where the main boom is there are drain hole areas. Over its working life it was used to repoint chimneys, etc. and enough cement has fallen in there where now that whole middle area won't drain. It needs to be broken up somehow. I tried with a hammer, to risky, there are fittings, hoses, etc. buried in that cement.

 

[od1]

Hey frodomocho1 where in NH are you? There's a place near North Stratford NH that has a lot of old heavy iron called Nash's they sell and rebuild maybe they can help?

 

[Delmer]

So you have an area that's filled with old mortar, sand etc that's become one solid mass? And you don't want to hit it with a hammer. Can you get underneath it and hit the bottom of the steel with a big hammer or air hammer? That might loosen it up enough to pick it out, or vacuum it out if you're really lucky.

 

[repowerguy]

Black Beauty is coal slag that is a little more coarse than typical silica. It seems to me at least not as pernicious as silica when it comes to getting into everything.
I used a DA on dads 40F when I painted it and while a big job, it turned out nice.
I regularly chip out wires and air lines incased in concrete with a air chisel with a dull bit in it, I just go slow and easy.
Where did you get the servo controls at? Dad put toggle switches on his and it makes smooth operation a little difficult. He just can't turn loose of the money for a farm machine. We did however put a 3179 Deere diesel in it so he wouldn't have to buy propane all the time.
If anyone is interested, I could get some pics of it.

 

[lantraxco]

There are concrete and mortar dissolving agents out there, some less hazardous than others, might look into it at your local builders supply house.

 

[od1]

No, can't get under it. The center of the 40F sits on a large area from where the whole rig rotates. Also the steel is very thick there. The base is very thick steel.

 

[od1]

Sure post some pic's. I'd like to see it! Also post any modifications he made. Can you post pics of the engine mod as well? Thanks for the Black Beauty info. as well. I'm going to see if the sandblasting place can work with that. Very good info. Thanks much!

Post your pics.!