New 9yd Machine

[LoaderMonkey]

Introduced at ConExpo today. Looks interesting.


Deere Developing Huge Hybrid Loader

Deere & Co.
At CONEXPO-CON/AGG 2011 tomorrow, John Deere will give the world a glimpse of the diesel/electric hybrid 944K wheel loader the company is working carefully to bring to market.

"In addition to fewer emissions, customers asked for durability, fuel efficiency and reduced tire wear," said John Chesterman, product marketing manager for four-wheel-drive loaders with John Deere. "We've responded with a loader that incorporates four modular, independent wheel drives with electronic traction control."

The 9-cubic-yard loader will use electric traction, meaning the engine drives a generator to create electricity used by an electric motor to drive each wheel. Sophisticated, responsive traction control should not only provide excellent terrain ability, but it significantly improve fuel efficiency, reduce tire wear, and increase drive-train durability and reliability by doing the work with fewer moving parts.

Customers also asked that the 944K give them better bucket-dumping visibility, so Deere's product development team is working with them to include a traditional dual-arm boom design.

But the company is not rushing this engineering departure to market.

"We won't rest until this nine-yard production-sized loader addresses customer requirements for maximum productivity and uptime, and lower daily operating costs," said Chesterman. "We are targeting 2013 for launch."

 

[d9gdon]

Wow, way to be on the cutting edge of technology there John Deere. Yeah, don't rush it into production either. An Engineering Departure?? LeTourneau has had this in production for over 50 years and they build the world's biggest rubber tire loader at about 54 cubic yards in the L2350, if not bigger by now. They own the market in their class. I cannot recall a competitor to them, but I am not a mining person. Whew, Deere you're really sneaking up on everybody!

LoaderMonkey, I'm not coming down on you. It's these overeducated marketing managers that spew this crap that irritates me. But then again, I yell at my network news program too. Facts are beside the point anymore.

"We won't rest..." Yeah, I bet he forgoes his vacation for the project. What a load of B/S. You couldn't beat a half a day's work out of him with a wet lariat rope.

Where do they get these idiots...

 

[Burnout]

So what exactly is your issue with the 944 and Deere on this?

Yes this is a departure for JD.... for them. Have you seen an Electric Hybrid drive loader from them that I haven't before? For them the 9yd loader class is all new territory. As is the Hybrid Drive system. Comparing any LeTourneau loader to any JD loader is like comparing my flame thrower to your bic. They are intended for 2 different worlds. The marketing crap they are spewing out, is pretty dead on for them. They haven't tinkered in the E-Drive class before, except for the 944 and 644K loaders. They have never been in the 9yd class before and why would they rush it into production? Why not let it simmer for a bit, hammer out the little problems you're bound to find in a new machine before it hits the market. I'm sure they could ram it down your throat right now but what happens when someone has the first batch of problems? It will have a bad name for as long as they decide to build it.

I say they have it right, they are listening to customers and bringing out what people want.

 

[LoaderMonkey]

I think it looks pretty promising too. The proof will be in the quarry. 20-25% better fuel economy is looking better and better these days.

 

[coalrulz]

This technology already exists, G.E. and Siemens (probably others) have incorporated this technology into Locomotives and off-highway haul trucks. The technology is very expensive, the traction alternator produces A/C, then it is rectified over to DC, then turned back over to a modified A/C with phase modules. It will be interesting with more manufactures looking into this technology to see how far it will advance.

 

[d9gdon]

My problem with Deere is that they act like it's new technology that they're just now discovering, and my reference between LeTourneau and Deere loaders wasn't meant to be apples to apples on the size of the loaders. It was a reference to the age of diesel electric drive technology used on wheel loaders. LeTourneau didn't start with a 54 cu yd loader either, they just started using this technology over 50 years ago. When I said LeTourneau had a 54 yard loader, it meant that if
Deere was carefully pondering whether this new technology would work on a HUGE HYBRID LOADER (the headline in the press release above) in the 9 yard class, then I could guarantee them out loud on this forum that it would cause LeT's loader is my definition of a huge hybrid loader. I could have referred to Cat's new diesel electric drive dozer, but it has a different application than a wheel loader. The same goes for LeT's diesel electric drive scrapers from the past, and from that past I mean 70+ years ago cause if I remember right, RG came out with this application in the 1930's or 1940's before he applied it to wheel loaders. I'm not saying LeT invented the technology either, he just applied it to wheel loaders a long, long time ago.

I don't have a problem with them not rushing a new diesel electric drive loader to market either, but I have my opinion at the propaganda they put out about it and I aired it. I hope they overtake the market with it and make billions off it since they're an American manufactureer employing American people. If it had've been Cat or Case to spew this crap, I would've said the same thing.

As far as listening to their customers and bringing what they want to them, I guess the speed of sound is different there than it is here...

 

[Deereman]

Even thoe i am a deereman I am all for someone else coming up with something good. Its funny how you say deere's propaganda but everyone does stuff like this but deere seems to have a very good team of doing this. It seems like every time cat comes out with something new everyone thinks its the best right off the line(etc skid steers and mini's)NOT..
And no its not new tech, but it is evolving. Remember how only a few ppl could afford cars and tv's way back then and how big and ockward they were?? Times have changed and the way things are built and being built are totally different.
"As far as listening to their customers and bringing what they want to them, I guess the speed of sound is different there than it is here..." Whats your point here??
To add. Deere didn't just jump into this or think about this this year or last. This has been going on over 4 to 5 years. And not by themselves..
Deere has done this time and time again. If you want to get into a market go find a company that makes something good and improve upon it. Yea bell,hitachi, new holland, liebherr and a few others get alot of credit but Deere is doing its fair if not more share in making those products better.

 

[alco]

Some people just don't like progress it seems.

 

[d9gdon]

"As far as listening to their customers and bringing what they want to them, I guess the speed of sound is different there than it is here..." Whats your point here??

From the original post:

"In addition to fewer emissions, customers asked for durability, fuel efficiency and reduced tire wear,"

I bet that customers were asking for these same things 50 years ago. That's what I mean by the speed of sound.

If it had've been Cat or Case to spew this crap, I would've said the same thing.

I don't see where you're getting that I'm against Deere or progress.

I hope they overtake the market with it and make billions off it since they're an American manufactureer employing American people.

Here, I'll offend some other people so you'll feel better. "The Cat 3208 engine was one of Cat's biggest failures as far as I'm concerned, and all of them should have been recalled and replaced along with a written apology from their engineering department."

"The entire line of Terex dozers with their cutting edge technologically advanced radiator-in-the-back-to-cook-the-operator were pieces of crap with a wood grained dash built by a car company."

I said it's the marketing that irritated me. The press release reads like they've invented an anti-gravity machine.

 

[Deereman]

Now you've gone and said it with that last sentance!!lol Now stuff will be floating everywhere in just a few..Some times you just have to read that propagand stuff no matter who it is like its the daily news. same ol stuff different day.
And now that deere is in this game it makes others more honest and for better products to come all the way around.

 

[RonG]

Over the last 40 plus years I have had the opportunity to run a lot of different equipment and the John Deere line of equipment has always impressed me the most when I got to try the next new model.It seemed like they had consulted with the operators before they made the changes to improve whatever it might have been that they changed.
I have also wondered who they may have talked to,if anybody,when they designed their equipment (as a package) to have to repair or maintain.I guess you can't have everything but they seem to be very difficult to work on,there is just no room to work.
I swear that the older dozers were built around the air cleaner.LOL
Ron G

 

[elirock83]

I actually saw this machine out an conexpo and it is pretty neat, didn't get to look real close, i was only out there for a couple of days so didn't feel like waiting in line for 20 mins to look at something. It is a big machine just as big as the 988 and wa600 a couple of booths away. it looks well built and if they r waiting till 2013 for the official launch that probably isn't a bad thing

 

[Deereman]

Yea ron, those 450c were kinda llike sitting in a cockpit of an air plane. Pulling the levers stright back into your chest. I felt like i was in some messed up workout video..

 

[RonG]

Yea ron, those 450c were kinda llike sitting in a cockpit of an air plane. Pulling the levers stright back into your chest. I felt like i was in some messed up workout video..

I agree but they would work like no other!!You could catch a load on the corner of the blade and they would just keep on pushing straight and you could load that blade right up and it would keep on pushing,material rolling right over the top of the blade if you let it.What a hot rod.That John Deere line of small dozers would spoil you for any other.........side hill,no problem,those dozers would taunt you........ask me something I cannot do.....c'mon......try me!!!Ron G

 

[CEwriter]

With a 2013 launch scheduled, they kinda had to bring it out last week. Next CONEXPO is 2014. I know I'd want to show the thing to a CONEXPO crowd before I opened the order book.

The size of this application is definitely a factor. The diesel/electric 644K they showed crossed the profit-margin line into single-electric-motor range, so they're building it with a conventional driveline broken by a generator on back of the engine and a motor on the transmission input shaft. The economics of building a 9-yard loader with four electric motors must have presented some real challenges.

But the opportunities are pretty amazing. When I interviewed John Chesterman, product manager quoted in this thread's original post, he said they were expecting 25% to 30% fuel economy advantage for the 944K (20% to 25% for the more-conventional drive train in the 644K). I say Deere is a lot like Cat in that, assured of a fuel-economy advantage as convincing-sounding as 25% or 30%, why risk overpromising? It's early, they don't really know how much fuel it could save in the many varied applications and operators. Some very early users of the Cat D7E just laughed when I asked them if they got the 30% fuel economy advantage Cat was promising. "More like 50%" they said, not batting an eye.

Then consider the tire-cost savings potential. Four independently monitored and controlled electric motors? Those tires are never going to slip. You put that kind of fuel- and tire-saving potential on the loading face, and I'll bet this machine will cut many quarries' ownership and operating costs in half.

LeTourneau has made some amazing contributions to ultra-class mining equipment, and I have a great deal of respect for the company and for RG himself.

I also have a lot of respect for Deere marketing this technology to a much broader market. The prior existance of diesel-electric propulsion hardly makes this application a "lay-up."

Photos of the 944K at CONEXPO

Larry

 

[Burnout]

I agree with CEWriter on this one.

I see the potential for Deere to cut a nice little hole in 988 sales with this machine when the time is right and they have the technology at a point where its going to be ready to bring to the market. John was kind enough to give us a walk around of the machine on video and we'll have that up in a couple days for you guys.

 

[d9gdon]

"Houston, we have a problem..."

I'll bet this machine will cut many quarries' ownership and operating costs in half.

So you think Deere will price these loaders at the same level as conventional drive loaders in the same class effectively "giving" the new owners all of that 50% savings in ownership costs? Or, is it going to cost twice as much as conventional drives and save the owners 50% in fuel and tire costs? Operating costs includes maintenance and repair (including downtime for warranty work) as well and we don't know how this new technology's gonna hold up yet. They'll have to recover their R&D costs for this new technology somehow. I'd say they'll make it up on repair and replacement parts' costs down the road, as well as initial purchase price. Saying that it will cut ownership costs in half is a big stretch without production machines in operation reminding me of the problem I have with the marketing hoopla.

I'd like to see the payout numbers on it after 10,000 hours and then again at 20,000 hours. I am sure it will definitely lower operating costs because Deere's no fool when it comes to designing and producing equipment, but I'll go out on a limb and say that it will never come close to reducing ownership costs by anything near 50%.

It's a good looking machine from the pictures. I like the looks of the cab, maybe they were going for some of that retro cool look like the new Camaros or Mustangs with the windshield. It reminds me of the Cat loaders from the 70's which are my favorite looking models. I bet the inside of it is way nicer than those were though.

 

[CEwriter]

So you think Deere will price these loaders at the same level as conventional drive loaders in the same class effectively "giving" the new owners all of that 50% savings in ownership costs?

No.

I'd expect electric drive to be significantly more expensive than conventional, made up largely by the low-volume cost of the motors, and partly by Deere taking a larger margin to recoup its development cost. Seems fairly unlikely that it will cost twice as much as conventional, because I'm sure Deere plans to actually sell some of them.

It is indeed a stretch to say the 944K could cut ownership costs in half if you're talking about an average of all operations and you're measuring it in terms of dollars per hour.

In saying 'many quarries' O&O costs' I was specifically thinking of those with high tire and driveline repair costs. Not only is the 944K likely to completely remake their tire costs, but electric drive is also likely to survive rough handling better than conventional drivelines over time. Together, I think those changes are likely to cut the operating side of the equation enough to bring total O&O down into the neighborhood of half those operations' previous expectations.

Particularly if they are measuring costs in dollars per ton of material moved, rather than dollars per hour. Because a machine that operates under full power without spinning tires (or only slipping marginally) is filling buckets faster; its not down as much for driveline repairs; and as long as the electrical technology is durable, it seems reasonable to assume it's going to produce a longer, more-productive life.

So yeah, if one of the many quarries that has trouble with tire and driveline life can reliably measure costs in terms of dollars per ton now buys a 944K, I would not be surprised if it delivers in the neighborhood of half the O&O costs.

Shall we debate the size of the neighborhood?

 

[d9gdon]

Shall we debate the size of the neighborhood?

You're going to have to pass the Durability exit before you get to the neighborhood, cause those little numbers pave the street to the bottom line, no matter if you measure in tons or hours.

...as long as the electrical technology is durable

Deere's marketing said it would be durable because customers demanded it, don't you believe them? There's that marketing again. If it's not durable, there go the O&O costs.

John Chesterman is a Product Manager. His job is to sell you something, good or bad. I bet he can't make it last any longer by telling you how good it is.

Nope, I'm sure of it. The jury's still out on this one. I want to see some payout numbers to convince me, Joe Dirt, to part with my money, not somebody selling a perpetual motion machine.

 

[CEwriter]

I encounter equipment buyers all the time who figure that if the Deere or Cat rep tells them a machine is going to last, they pretty much count on it. Of course they may write an uptime guarantee into a purchase contract -- and a manufacturer who has confidence in their product will be willing to sign that document -- but the basic thinking is that a liar doesn't last very long in the business selling million-dollar machines.

If anything said in the sales process, or "marketing," is to be considered a lie, then it seems to me there would be an awful lot of ruined hulks of business-wrecking Deere (and Cat and Komatsu and Case and . . . ) equipment strewn across the landscape. I mean, when you consider the number of units rolling off those manufacturers' assembly lines. 'Cause every one of them comes with the marketing peoples' hearty assurance that those machines will deliver a reasonably profitable operating life. Certainly no intelligent businessman would buy a second machine from a company that couldn't deliver decent value for price of their machines and parts?

Yet I meet contractors all the time who have tens, hundreds, even thousands of Cat or Deere or Komatsu or Case machines in their fleets. They must not be as shrewd as you are. Must be awful lucky, though. Many of them have been in business 30 or 40 years or more.