New 2 Me - Deere/ Hitachi 50C- Hydraulic Oil Dilema

[jav]

So I picked up a 50C and am doing a full service to it now. My problem is the original owner- a landscape company- had an outside company routinely service all his machines (Not all Deere's). I found recent dates on all filters and the machine is in excellent operational condition so I know it's been maintined BUT- he's convinced they've been using 32 weight Hydraulic oil.

I've asked enough different ways that I'm starting to sound annoying but- my understanding is that Hitachi/Deere spec AW46 zinc free? He's knows its not Deere oil. He doesn't know if the oil is zinc free, he's pretty sure it was synthetic and almost positive it is 32 - and not 46 weight.

Looking for some ideas on how to best proceed at this poing and not make create problems?

I'm thinnking of draining the tank and adding 5 gallons of the correct oil. Cycling all actuators several times- then draining the oil again. chnage the filter and fill to capacity with correct oil?

Opinions?

 

[excavator]

Best thing you can do is find an operators manual and read it. I'm not positive but I don't believe they used the zinc free in the C series and 32 will work fine but they usually call for 46 in most moderate climates.

 

[Coaldust]

I’d pull an oil sample. That will solve the mystery. Maybe it doesn’t need the hyd oil changed. If you want to change it, what flavor does the O&M recommend? Go with that.

Hydraulic oil needs pre-filtered to meet the manufacturer iso4406 cleanliness standards. If you don’t have the tools to do that, I’d consider going with the Chevron ISO clean product in a 32 or 46.

 

[jav]

Thanks guys- the oil sample may e a good idea and I'd think it coulld identify viscocity, zinc and stock type. But I didn't think it could identify additives or brand and I thought incompatible mixing could create more problems with foaming/breakdown?

 

[Vetech63]

There's an old saying I'm extremely fond of.........."If it aint broke, don't fix it!"

 

[jav]

There's an old saying I'm extremely fond of.........."If it aint broke, don't fix it!"

I agree and if the oil level was good, I'd just swap the filter and go. But- the level is low and I need to add at least a couple of gallons... hence my dilemma? I suppose I could just look for some zinc free synthetic AW32 and go with that? Perhaps I'm too concerned with compatibility but another good saying is "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

 

[Coaldust]

Sounds like you have done some homework on hydraulic oil compatibility. That’s really only a concern with water emulsion and anti-foam agents found in specialty oils. Normally, not a concern with commonly used products. Add a note to your oil sample form asking the lab tech to best identify the oil brand. They get so familiar with additive packages they can often make an accurate guess. There won’t be any issues, if you top-off with clean oil.

 

[excavator]

Deere/Hitachi dealers will tell you that you cannot mix zinc free and regular hyd oils. I know of a local company that had a new ZX160-3 and their operator topped off the tank with regular oil. The dealer picked it up and brought it to their shop, an hour away, and flushed the system 3 times before returning it. I also had a customer with a ZX120 who would regularly top it off with regular hyd oil and 10 years later never had an issue with it. I've seen a lot written about what will happen but not a lot of actual problems.

 

[Coaldust]

Interesting. Good to know. Thanks for sharing that. I’ll have to chat up my favorite tribologist next week. He loves conversations like that.

Good opportunity to become familiar with the JCMAS HK spec oils. I found Chevron’s opinion on that. Clarity synthetic aw46 is their recommended fluid, with a complete drain, flush & fill as per Tech Bulletin LTB-47. Interesting. Yup, I’d be doing regular scheduled sampling on that rig.

 

[Nige]

Deere/Hitachi dealers will tell you that you cannot mix zinc free and regular hyd oils. I know of a local company that had a new ZX160-3 and their operator topped off the tank with regular oil. The dealer picked it up and brought it to their shop, an hour away, and flushed the system 3 times before returning it. I also had a customer with a ZX120 who would regularly top it off with regular hyd oil and 10 years later never had an issue with it. I've seen a lot written about what will happen but not a lot of actual problems.

As far as I know it was only the bigger stuff (EX2500 and up) where the ISO 46 zinc-free hydraulic oil was a "must have". A number of cases I have commented on here on HEF regarding what happened when the wrong hydraulic oil was used, from vane-type fan motors failing to "will fit" Fleetguard hydraulic filters on one occasion that leached zinc into the oil from the galvanizing on the steel mesh supporting the filter media and played havoc with some very expensive implement pumps.

That said the consensus I've seen so far was that on the smaller machines provided a customer consistently stuck with either ashless oil or with a hydraulic oil using a "conventional" zinc-based anti-wear package, nothing nasty was likely to happen.

 

[uffex]

Good day
The attached may answer the question.
Kind regards
Uffex

 

[Nige]

Correct me if i'm wrong but AFAIK none of the options quoted in the document above by @uffex are zinc-free oils.

The Deere/Hitachi ashless hydraulic oil that I'm familiar with is Hitachi 46HN - https://www.hitachicm.com/global/businesses/value-chain/parts-service/parts/hydraulic-oils/

 

[jav]

Nige-

thanks for chiming in.. I've read several of your other posts on the bigger Hitachi/Ashless/Zinc Free conversations. All good stuff and I have confirmed from several sources that correct oil for the machine is the 46HN.

Not "knowing" for sure what has been used in the past is my dilemma. At about $35/gallon for 46HN-(and even more for some others) a full flush is a sizeable sum to spend -on a new to me machine - where a line could blow the first time I use it. I was hoping to find a reasonable middle ground (filter and top up) just to get some hours on the machine but I may just have to spend the money and hope the lines are all good.

 

[Nige]

TBH with a machine as small as yours with a relatively simple hydraulic system I don’t see that it makes a difference so long as ashless oils are not mixed with non-ashless oils. It’s not like your machine has eight variable-displacement piston pumps in the implement hydraulic system. That's about $100k's worth of pumps sat in the foreground.

 

[Coaldust]

“Correct me if i'm wrong but AFAIK none of the options quoted in the document above by @uffexare zinc-free oils.”

I was going to say something along those lines, including some of those products are not even available in North America.

 

[Nige]

IMO the more pertinent part of that document are the JD standards JDM J20C & J20D. Surely they will be specifications that could be used to determine a suitable oil.?

 

[Delmer]

Low vis Hygard is 32, so I wouldn't worry about running 32 hydraulic oil in the hydraulics. I doubt Hitachi insists on Hygard.

A mini is not like Nige's fleet that runs 24/7 and has meticulous cleanliness in the oil. The oil in this came out of a bucket, through a dirty funnel, and has way more dirt than the oil in a heavy duty machine that will be go 10,000 hours between rebuilds.

Change the filter and send an oil sample. If you want to change the oil, there are ways to get more oil out other than draining the tank.

 

[Nige]

Good day
The attached may answer the question.
Kind regards
Uffex

Are those the recommendations for the OP's machine.?
I can confirm that the neither of the J20C & 20D specifications are for a zinc-free/ashless oil.

 

[mg2361]

Operator's manual for the 50C states to use Hitachi EX46HN zinc free oil for a 2000 hr service interval. Oils that can be substituted (which brings the service interval down to 1000 hrs) are:

• Texaco Inc.: Rando Oil HD46
• Mobil Oil: DTE25
• Shell Oil: Tellus Oil 46
• John Deere Low Viscosity HY-GARD™ or oils meeting John Deere Standard JDM J20D

 

[Nige]

That makes more sense. Either use the zinc-free EX46HN and change oil at 2000 hours or use a substitute alternative oil with a zinc-based anti-wear package and change oil at 1000 hours. Interesting that the operator's manual does not insist that zinc-free oil is used.
I would assume that the implication is not to mix the two types of oil at the same time.?