Need a little more help Case XT90/Cummins 4BT

[Bobcat Crazy]

Okay so I have the engine almost back together with just a few issues, mostly getting the cam gear back on was the most troublesome. I'm sure that others have experienced this as well on their first Cummins rebuild. Other than that it was pretty much the same as any other engine.
I have the crank and cam timing set and now it is time for the injector pump, I have watched some vids on this and can handle the procedure without any problem.

My issue at this point is, I am not sure if the timing is BTDC ort ATDC. The engine tag reads,

''Timing - TDC 17 Degrees''
Does the dash/hyphen mean BTDC?

I am a little confused because I am used to seeing BTDC if it is before. I know probably everyone on the site knows the answer to this except me so I am asking this question at the risk of showing my ignorance about Cummins engines
Thanks All,
B-Crazy

 

[jacobd]

That would be before top dead center. I think you'll find it runs quite poorly indeed if you retard the timing to 17 degrees after top dead center
Why did you separate the cam gear from the cam? I've never had call to do that.

 

[thepumpguysc]

I've seen quite afew cam gears get replaced do to excessive back lash..
All ya gotta do is throw it on your propane grill for an hour & pick it up w/ welding gloves..
she'll slip right on..

 

[thepumpguysc]

I don't wanna get into a pizzin battle w/ anyone BUT..
The ENGINE will be at TDC & the PUMP will be at 17*
Once u get all your gears on & dots lined up.. LOOK at the inj. pump timing pin hole, the one UNDER the pump..
With the engine at TDC, that hole in the cam gear should be in the window for the inj. pump timing pin..
What inj. pump do u have?? the Bosch VE or the CAV/Delphi.??
Either way, they should both be locked.. that's to say, the drive shafts on the pump should be locked..
IF you have a VE pump & the timing isn't locked & the gear isn't cut for a KEY.. STOP.. U don't wanna be doing this twice.. Get the pump timed & locked
Just about every CAV I've run across has a key.. but u still have to know what LETTER to set it to.. if your flyin blind..

 

[Vetech63]

I've seen quite afew cam gears get replaced do to excessive back lash..
All ya gotta do is throw it on your propane grill for an hour & pick it up w/ welding gloves..
she'll slip right on..

You should throw in a couple of 12 ounce sirloins too.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Not on THAT ONE.. u don't want the drippins' getting on the gear..lol
We had another one for THAT..{seriously}

 

[Bobcat Crazy]

That would be before top dead center. I think you'll find it runs quite poorly indeed if you retard the timing to 17 degrees after top dead center
Why did you separate the cam gear from the cam? I've never had call to do that.

Thanks for your help Jacobd, I had to put a crank kit in it, so I had to pull all of the front end off, the can looked good so I didn't have to pull the cam.

 

[Bobcat Crazy]

I've seen quite afew cam gears get replaced do to excessive back lash..
All ya gotta do is throw it on your propane grill for an hour & pick it up w/ welding gloves..
she'll slip right on..

Haha my mistake, I tried the grill thing (without the steak) but I only left it on for 30 minutes. So I didn't get it all the way on before it stopped moving. Hey I was 1/2 way there with it.

 

[Bobcat Crazy]

I don't wanna get into a pizzin battle w/ anyone BUT..
The ENGINE will be at TDC & the PUMP will be at 17*
Once u get all your gears on & dots lined up.. LOOK at the inj. pump timing pin hole, the one UNDER the pump..
With the engine at TDC, that hole in the cam gear should be in the window for the inj. pump timing pin..
What inj. pump do u have?? the Bosch VE or the CAV/Delphi.??
Either way, they should both be locked.. that's to say, the drive shafts on the pump should be locked..
IF you have a VE pump & the timing isn't locked & the gear isn't cut for a KEY.. STOP.. U don't wanna be doing this twice.. Get the pump timed & locked
Just about every CAV I've run across has a key.. but u still have to know what LETTER to set it to.. if your flyin blind..

Hey Pumpguy, I have the Bosch pump. So if I am understanding you correctly, I will lock the cam gear with the pin that pushes in from the back cover and lock the pump with the pin where you remove the cap nut and flip the pin over and put it in place once I get the pump notch in the correct place. Once I have those in place I install the pump drive gear (aligning the mark) and then torque it down and this will be set at 17 degrees. The only reason the I would need to use a degree wheel or move the engine is if I want to add or subtract timing.

Is this correct? If this correct it is much simpler than I thought. Thanks for the help

 

[thepumpguysc]

It sounds as if u have the Bosch in-line pump.. timing pin in the gov. hsg..
That procedure sounds like it will work..

 

[Bobcat Crazy]

It sounds as if u have the Bosch in-line pump.. timing pin in the gov. hsg..
That procedure sounds like it will work..

Sounds good thanks for the help

 

[thepumpguysc]

I more little trick>> before u slip the PUMP drive gear on.. look inside the hole.. there is probably an indentation of where the key was previously.. That's to say, if your pump & gear ISNT keyed.

 

[Bobcat Crazy]

I more little trick>> before u slip the PUMP drive gear on.. look inside the hole.. there is probably an indentation of where the key was previously.. That's to say, if your pump & gear ISNT keyed.

Hey that is a good idea, I wish I had checked back on this thread before I had it buttoned up. But now it is what it is, I hope setting it with the two pins and then locking down the injector drive gear is correct. I guess I will find out in another week or so when I have time to get back to it. It is supposed to be in the teens here some next week so I will take a break from it for a few days. If it is freezing weather when I get off work I am going to hold this recliner down so it does not get away. When it warms up again I will jump back on it.
Thanks for the help guys.

 

[Bobcat Crazy]

Hey Guys, back again needing more help (looks like I am kind of like my adult children, I only hear from them when they need something ). So I have finally gotten back to the Case 90XT, I have the engine all mounted and hooked up (even those two !@#$%^& bolts at the bottom of the bellhousing). It will crank over with the starter fine, I have run the starter enough the build a highway but it will not start.
I have fuel to the injection pump but not a drop coming out of it . Are there any tricks, hacks, prayers that I can try before I remove the pump and start the disassembly? Hoping the PumpguySC will chime in too.

Thanks All

 

[63 caveman]

Is your fuel shut off solenoid on the pump? Is it getting power?

 

[Bobcat Crazy]

Is your fuel shut off solenoid on the pump? Is it getting power?

Yes, when I turn the key on it does not move but as soon as I turn it to the starter position it opens all the way and stays in that position until the key is switched off. I assume that this is the normal operation.

 

[thepumpguysc]

It doesn't mean that the stroke on the solenoid is correct.. it could be holding THE LEVER still in the shut off position.. TAKE THE SOLENOID OFF..

 

[thepumpguysc]

Did u bleed the lines??
Starting one from scratch is a 2 man job.. 1 to turn the key & 1 to turn wrenches..
Leave the lines loose AT THE INJECTORS..
Loosen the RETURN line on the pump..{banjo bolt on the back side} NOW crank the engine till fuel squirts out the RETURN line & tighten..
BTW> there IS A DIFFERENCE in the banjo bolts.. The one w/ the check ball goes in the RETURN/Back..
The OPEN one goes in the INLET/Front..
Now that we KNOW u f'd up..Lol.. Swap the bolts to the correct holes..
Once u get fuel to the return, tighten it up..
Now w/ the pedal all the way to the floor, crank till u get fuel out of the loosened lines AT THE INJECTORS & tighten..
Now off u go..

 

[63 caveman]

Did u bleed the lines??
Starting one from scratch is a 2 man job.. 1 to turn the key & 1 to turn wrenches..
Leave the lines loose AT THE INJECTORS..
Loosen the RETURN line on the pump..{banjo bolt on the back side} NOW crank the engine till fuel squirts out the RETURN line & tighten..
BTW> there IS A DIFFERENCE in the banjo bolts.. The one w/ the check ball goes in the RETURN/Back..
The OPEN one goes in the INLET/Front..
Now that we KNOW u f'd up..Lol.. Swap the bolts to the correct holes..
Once u get fuel to the return, tighten it up..
Now w/ the pedal all the way to the floor, crank till u get fuel out of the loosened lines AT THE INJECTORS & tighten..
Now off u go..

I'm glad you said that! I thought it was just me that had to do all that bleeding to light one of those buggers when they get a gulp of air.

 

[Bobcat Crazy]

Did u bleed the lines??
Starting one from scratch is a 2 man job.. 1 to turn the key & 1 to turn wrenches..
Leave the lines loose AT THE INJECTORS..
Loosen the RETURN line on the pump..{banjo bolt on the back side} NOW crank the engine till fuel squirts out the RETURN line & tighten..
BTW> there IS A DIFFERENCE in the banjo bolts.. The one w/ the check ball goes in the RETURN/Back..
The OPEN one goes in the INLET/Front..
Now that we KNOW u f'd up..Lol.. Swap the bolts to the correct holes..
Once u get fuel to the return, tighten it up..
Now w/ the pedal all the way to the floor, crank till u get fuel out of the loosened lines AT THE INJECTORS & tighten..
Now off u go..

Well with that being said I see that I did something right, I didn't swap the bolts around.
I have fuel to the bleeder screw above the filter housing.
I cracked the banjo bolt on the metal line feeding the inj pump I have fuel there so I tightened it back.
I have the banjo cracked loose on the return line
no fuel there
I have the inj lines cracked loose at both ends, on top of pump, and at the injectors
no fuel there However I realize that I will have any fuel at inj lines until I get it through the pump to the return line.
Have I missed anything?

Keep in mind the this engine sat partially disassembled for 2 or 3 years after the oil pump locked up and they cooked the crank on it. But just before the engine was running good injector pump and all.

I am thinking about changing my site name from Bobcat Crazy to Case 90XT crazy because this thing is driving me. Well you know