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Motor-Grading Techniques

Turf1

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
7
Location
United States
Clayton, after yrs. of operating you will know where grade is within a fraction. It is all feel and that comes with experience. NEVER be afraid to try something new. Put material where you want it and take away what doesn't belong. Tricks- speed and angle putting a road windrow back for shaping is to have combination correct ( depends on wet or dry material) in a pinch slide toe out and grab some turf to carry, it will keep material from spilling out if ya got it wrong and keep things right till you correct it.
 

The Tackman

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Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
46
Location
Georgia USA
Occupation
Paving Foreman in Atlanta
I was reading through this thread and have been trying some of the techniques talked about and they have been working for me. I'm a Asphalt Paving Foreman by trade but work is a little slow right now and I have been learning to operate a Motor Grader. I wanted to grease the blade circle on the 14H that I've been running and the mechanic said NO!!! His explanation was the company went to greaseless bushings and "They don't need grease" Is he full of it or is he right?
 

Bluetop Man

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
266
Location
Louisiana
Occupation
farmer
The guy is full of it. What greaseless bushings? Nonetheless, the established procedure among all long-term users of motor graders that I have worked for is to leave the circle dry, especially if you are in sand. The M Series may require another policy.
 

Turf1

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
7
Location
United States
I never grease (nor would think of) the blade circle, it attracts dirt.Check for wear and replace wear plates as needed.
 

The Tackman

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Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
46
Location
Georgia USA
Occupation
Paving Foreman in Atlanta
Maybe I misread the post by Randy Krieg where he talked about turning the blade around a greasing the circle. Am I wrong or was he talking about a different area of the machine?
 

Radrock

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Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
216
Location
Joplin, Missouri
Occupation
Heavy equipment operator
Maybe I misread the post by Randy Krieg where he talked about turning the blade around a greasing the circle. Am I wrong or was he talking about a different area of the machine?

You do not grease a circle on any H or M series motor graders. They have wear strips that is a soft metal to keep from wearing out the circle. If you do anything use dry graphite spray.
 

Radrock

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Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
216
Location
Joplin, Missouri
Occupation
Heavy equipment operator

Yes that is a good detailed explanation. Randy is one smart cookie. I sure enjoy his pictures too!! I do not grease the teeth on my grader either. I still use the graphite spray. Sometimes twice a day if turning the circle a lot. I have 16,000 hours on the 160H that I operate and it is still in fair condition. Rather it be grease or graphite you still need to lubricate the teeth and gear. The book does indicate grease but I still prefer graphite.
 

durtmvr

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Sunny and Frikin HOT Arizona
Occupation
Currently Finish Blade Operator, Previously Genera
Remember guys the circle has teeth 360 degrees. Those back teeth aren’t for looks, they’re made to be used.

I all but forgot Randy. Thanks for this post. Back in '94 I was working over in California running a 16G. They had a 150' high slope that they didn't pull when the last company had moved the muck. I was hired because the last fellow didn't have the skills and you had to have some special training which I already had. I had never been slung off a slope before. When I say slung, I mean held up by cables going up to the hinge point attached to an old 9 set up for laying pipe. He held me up on the slope. The slope was about 1/2 mile long in the shape of an eyebrow and the tolerance was + - .02'. It only took about 2 passes backing up that I figured it was going to be a long summer so I started racking out and positioning 180 out then making a reverse pass. Got pretty good at it and the slope only took about 1 1/2 weeks. Now I do it whenever the need arises. Actually never thought about it in cul de sacs but I'm going to give it a whirl on Tuesday when I return to work.
 

durtmvr

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Sunny and Frikin HOT Arizona
Occupation
Currently Finish Blade Operator, Previously Genera
This has been a very good thread. I have a few things I didn't see mentioned. They may possibly have been mentioned but I'm actually only half way though all the postings. Here goes;

1. I so commonly see operators "finishing" with their board rolled all the way over. Typically I do not use this practice. I do not need to see where my edge is, no need to have it rolled over. What I see happening is when it is rolled over you wear all the sharp off your edges and then have to go burn them off when you are in hard material to cut your material down to grade. This is not so much of the problem I see as to what rolling your board over does to your material. Rolling the board over does not process the material being cut. Your lows end up full of rock. Hope and pray the soils tester does not take a test in one of those rock ridden holes....you will fail.

2. If you want to carry material uphill (like wiping rock over a berm, roll the board over, the material will work its way up without falling down.

3. Know the width of your machine, the width of your cut. Width of your tire tracks. Example, If you are cutting terraces on house pads and the hinge has a 1' offset from your stake line. You can drive a straight line from outside of stake to outside of stake and use your tire track a "painted" line to start your slope. You can use this for figuring out where the crown is on a road or figuring where the crown is in a dogleg with bubble on the elbow of the dogleg.

4. When working with 2-D and 3D electronics that require cross slope, you must keep the knuckles of you loists perpendicular to the grade you are cutting. If you are articulated, your cross slope WILL be off. If using a fixed target on one side it is best to define grade under your target then freehand screeding the grade your target side laid down and use your target side as the toe for the rest of your passes. It is good to teach your scraper operator how to "read" the grade with an electronic machine. If you slip tires, you still have cut to go and the scraper should remove the entire windrow in this area. If you come off grade you are obviously low and will have to make another pass over area so the scraper should give you some fill. Teach your scraper operator to keep a consistent wind row height for you to work with. Consistency when working with electronics I have found to be the key especially on a machine with a lot of slack in the various joints and circle. Before you set your sonar depth, have a load of material on your blade. All the slack is pulled out of the board and it will cut better grade when pinging off of the wire or curb.

5. If you are running a support blade, don't let your slopes get away from you. Make sure you pull you pull your fill slopes up before the grade checker gets to them with wood. Make sure you pull your cut slopes down before your grade checker pulls his wood down also.

6. When running a support blade, it is kind of pointless to constantly keep grading road that is in good shape. It is a waste of time. Instead, spend more time on the bad areas of road. It will also give you more time to pioneer new roads to new cuts and fills should the spread have to move.

7. When finishing, go slow. It is better to cut it right the first time than to have to make a dozen passes over the same grade over and over.

8. When pulling corrections I prefer to only pull my correction areas and 1/4 them. If a light brush is needed after the grade is finished, then so be it, but wait until the grade is sold. If you constantly go over grade that will sell, you risk having to regrade what was already good grade.

9. Verify that your scraper is cutting flat. If your scraper is cutting flat and the operator chingers your grade, it was your fault. Take the opportunity to see where he dug into your grade and cut the hump out and re quarter your grade....you weren't on grade to begin with or the operator would not have under cut you (unless it is in a vertical curb or coming out of an apron or something like that) Push your bulk out of your corners and doglegs to allow the scraper a chance to set on good grade. Remember, he can be your best friend or worst enemy. More often than not, I see blade operators blame the scraper hand when it was the blade that did not give the scraper operator the opportunity to pick up good grade.

10. If cutting curb grade it is a good idea to know if the curb will be hand formed or machine laid. Typically hand formed curb you will want to undercut whereas machine curb you will want to leave about .1' high. Before you make the grade for the machine curb, scarify, process and cut all of your bones out of the material, then roll it back in and roll and cut your grade. You don't want to leave a bunch of bones in the grade. It tears up the curb machine and makes for a rougher curb for you to finish next to later. If supporting a curb crew, wipe out all of the clean out piles, green concrete at termination and if you are up to it all of the material that might have made it under the shoe of the form on the curb machine (this shouldn't happen if you cut your grade correctly unless their form is worn out and needs built up.) It is better to incorporate all this green concrete into fill instead of allowing it to line up your sub grade or bouncing over later.

11. Get your grade as close as possible before moving your material over your hubs. The more hub passes you make, the more likely you are to rip one out. I say if you don't rip some out you are not getting the grade close enough. More often than not if you are not rubbing paint off you will have a .02' (1/4") hump in the grade (which isn't bad and will still probably sell) which can start you running high between your hubs. You know if you are cheating your hubs, don't be afraid to try to screw the grade down to the top of the wood. Again, you will tear out some hubs, weather it be dragging a whisker into hard material (have your gunnea chaser loosen the material around your hubs just a hair below grade the length of the whisker and you will not tear them out in these situations) or having a stubby hub or even that the hub was driven in at an angle and the whisker was set on toward the low side. You still have to get the material down to grade.

12. I like to spin off big flat grade. How else are you going to balance grade 50' between hubs with no 1/4s? I guarantee you can do it in half the time spinning it off. Some people look at you like you are a greenhorn for doing it. Spinning grade balances the grade, aids in compaction and gives you a very good surface to work on. Some years back I had a number of rake pads in a sub division to finish. Finished over 90 pads in an 8 hour shift by spinning them off. Boss looked very differently at it after that. It is still common practice at that company today.

13. If your grade is tight when starting off, your edge grade is tight and you have a load on your board...you should effectively be able to control your grade by only moving your toe side of the board. if you are cutting deep your heel will be riding over your grade. if you are digging into you heel, you need to drop your toe side, you are cutting high.

14. I like grading my start points in reverse. It is easier to control the movement of the blade that way. The blade comes down gradually as your tires fall off of whatever it is you are cutting away from whereas you have all sorts of stuff going on if you take a dive at it with your rear tires coming off of it. If you take it forward I like to roll the board about 20% over and make sure your tires are coming off the surface square. If you are on grade you can make a quick adjustment by rolling your board up to come out of the ground or roll it down to take more cut. Just remember....every machine has its fixed points that grade is cut from. A dozer is the tracks, a loader the front wheels, a scraper the rear wheels, a grade tractor the rear wheels and your blade the rear wheels. Get set on grade and the rest is easier.

If anyone disagrees, it's Ok. Its just my opinion and things I think I have picked up over the years. Remember, everyone has their own way of doing things.
 

durtmvr

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Sunny and Frikin HOT Arizona
Occupation
Currently Finish Blade Operator, Previously Genera
Nope, no slope meter. I have run a machine with a slope meter and i kind of miss having one...........and are what kind of price tag do they carry?

Truckin4life: the inexpensive poor mans slope meter. You need a magic marker, a clear tube from home depot about the size of a pencil, 2 caps for the tube and a bit of mineral oil and a 4' level and tape measure. Mount the tube up each side of your windshield using some fine wire to wire the tube to the screws that hold the window trim on. Fill the tube up with mineral oil (it moves slower than using water, notice how slow a kuker ranken hand level is compared to a seco with the green bubble?) so that the oil goes about half way up each side of your tube. Position your 4' level on the windshield ledge and level out your blade until your level is set. mark your tube on each side with a line. Then measure out 1%, 2% etc. Works really good for about $4 compared to $150 and having to go through the same mounting procedure.
 

Oxbow

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
1,220
Location
Idaho
Durtmvr, a lot of good points in your post. Question, regarding # 12, could you please explain what you mean by "spin off big flat grade"? Does this mean that you like to work big square and level pads in a circular motion?

Also, I don't know what a rake pad is, but doing one every 5.33 minutes sounds pretty impressive!

Thanks
 

durtmvr

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Sunny and Frikin HOT Arizona
Occupation
Currently Finish Blade Operator, Previously Genera
Durtmvr, a lot of good points in your post. Question, regarding # 12, could you please explain what you mean by "spin off big flat grade"? Does this mean that you like to work big square and level pads in a circular motion?

Also, I don't know what a rake pad is, but doing one every 5.33 minutes sounds pretty impressive!

Thanks
I would start on a rake section (a rake is where your pads have very little step between the pads. say there is .10 between your pads. The terrace side of the pad can be lifted .05 and the hinge side of the pad can be dropped .05 and the pads can still remain within the .10 tolerance given to sell the grade)at the highest side of the lots. I would trim the lot from front to back and try to get it on grade. Then I would make an edge pass along the back of the lot line and attempt to put it to grade. Then I would cut grade on the lowest pad from back to front, then the front of lot back to where I started. When getting to the point in which I started, I'd run the blade around in circles trying to hit the grade I had just screeded off. I typically split each pass down the middle of the board. You will not make a HUGE circle with the blade, yet circles that are the size of the lots from front to back. You will go over your work repeatedly which will aid in compaction and will gradually fill holes and knock down humps. I like to train my scraper hands to spin off in front of me. I can finish pads with a scraper using this technique. When you hit the end you will be surprised at how uniform it is. If you left a hump in it, you will easily see it. The final step is to brush the pad off from center out. Unless the pads adjoining the set you just spun are higher, then brush from back of pad to front of lot. Done. You can use this technique when finishing large pads as well. I like to work in circles with laser control especially. I built a job that had 12 40 acre ponds using laser control. The basins had to be +/-.02 which I could not understand as they were to be ripped when the grade was finished. I set the laser up in the middle of the pond and started at the high end with the 14H. I had to get the outer limits of the ponds down to grade as we were only supplied with a single laser tracker for the blade. (Dual trackers respond in half the time and are the best way to go when using laser controls IMO) Then I would run with the laser on the toe side and freehand the grade on the heel. Make certain to not put yourself in a situation where you have to make tight turns, thus start at one end but when you turn around on your edges run down the middle. This way you finish the topside where you started your bottom side and end the bottom side at the end of the grade. 2 final windrows to clean up. A lot of what I just described goes back to what I said earlier about training your scraper operators what to look for. This particular job I had 2 633s finishing for me running balls out. Teach them also not to break the beam between the laser and your blade. Teach them to keep your windrows consistent, have them watch for wheel spin, there is still cut left if you are breaking traction, have them watch for voids where you need fill, if there is no windrow, it is low. If the windrow gets heavy, they need to set in beside your windrow and muck some material out, then if they have time come take 3/4 of the windrow before you get to it. If they undercut it, it's no big deal, they can always drop some in before you get back to it. $.12 a square yard it cost us to finish those ponds. Dirt was flying everywhere and the owner had a big smile on his face. :)
 

JDOFMEMI

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Messages
3,074
Location
SoCal
Durtmvr

You have given out a lot of good advice here and in your other posts. I have enjoyed reading it, and would enjoy even more working with people like you who understand the finer points of getting work done efficiently. I had a great crew like that once, but only a couple of guys left that understand now since there has been no work to speak of for about 5 years now. With tips like you posted, I remember grading a 180 acre pond to +0.05, -0.00, and selling all the grade in 12 days with one blade, one dozer to rough in, and 2 push pulls to cut and fill. No eggbeaters on the job.
 

OldandWorn

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
908
Location
Md/Pa
Interesting reading guys!! I don't understand the tight grade on the ponds. Is this the bottom that you are talking about?
 

durtmvr

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Sunny and Frikin HOT Arizona
Occupation
Currently Finish Blade Operator, Previously Genera
Interesting reading guys!! I don't understand the tight grade on the ponds. Is this the bottom that you are talking about?
I don't understand the tight grade to this day. The floor of the ponds sloped at 1% from the South to the North in the ponds. The purpose of these ponds is to recharge the aquafer with water obtained from the Colorado River. The pond floors were ripped and cross ripped 3' deep when the floors were completed. 32°14'5.08"N 111°14'31.34"W

Info on that job here

Moved the dirt in 4 months at a cost of $.62 a cube.

If you look at the photos the intake side is the low side of the ponds.
 

Radrock

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Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
216
Location
Joplin, Missouri
Occupation
Heavy equipment operator
I all but forgot Randy. Thanks for this post. Back in '94 I was working over in California running a 16G. They had a 150' high slope that they didn't pull when the last company had moved the muck. I was hired because the last fellow didn't have the skills and you had to have some special training which I already had. I had never been slung off a slope before. When I say slung, I mean held up by cables going up to the hinge point attached to an old 9 set up for laying pipe. He held me up on the slope. The slope was about 1/2 mile long in the shape of an eyebrow and the tolerance was + - .02'. It only took about 2 passes backing up that I figured it was going to be a long summer so I started racking out and positioning 180 out then making a reverse pass. Got pretty good at it and the slope only took about 1 1/2 weeks. Now I do it whenever the need arises. Actually never thought about it in cul de sacs but I'm going to give it a whirl on Tuesday when I return to work.

We had done that a lot as well. We had an eye welded to the grader for a clevace to be attached to. Notice I said had done that. Now days the state prefers we walk slope in with a dozer leaving the grouser marks so seed can stay on the slope instead of washing away. They used to want them slick as a baby's bottom.
 

denverbroncos#7

New Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2013
Messages
1
Location
colorado
Question I am a green horn when it comes to running a grader, I run a cat143h, I struggle with crowning a road, I do not have a bubble or slope control on the grader, is there a way to guess, say a 4% slope would be without a bubble or a cross slope?
 

Oxbow

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
1,220
Location
Idaho
Question I am a green horn when it comes to running a grader, I run a cat143h, I struggle with crowning a road, I do not have a bubble or slope control on the grader, is there a way to guess, say a 4% slope would be without a bubble or a cross slope?
I only have maybe 2500 hours of blade experience so others on here will be better advisors, but two things come to mind to help you:
1) Buy a slope bubble personally. They cost around $60, but then you know what a 2% vs 4% feels like.
2) Pay strick attention to where your rear tires are in relation to the crown. I like to articulate about half way when taking material over the crown, keeping my rear tires on one side of the crown and the front tires somewhat straddleing the crown. On the next pass I run straight pulling material away from the crown. Again, the rear tires remain definitevely on the other side of the crown. This helps me in that it keeps the rear tires on consistent grade, and away from inconsistent compaction of the material once it has crossed the crown.

I started doing this because of my lack of experience, and the need for a method that would help me get the intended result. In other words, using the design of the machine to help.

In almost all, if not all equipment, be aware of what determines the grade. Scrapers is rear tires, loaders is front tires, blades-rear tires, even dozers-the rear of the tracks as the front (at least when they are bigger than the fixed frame dozers) oscillate. Even excavators (track hoes), things work so much easier when the track frame is sitting appropriate to the task (if you want to dig level, make sure you have the machine sitting level.

I hope this helps!
 

gilledp

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
8
Location
Illinois
Guys

Great thread,,...just one point of clarification regarding the discussion on grease or no grease on the circle. The recommendation is for grease on the circle pinion regardless of operational conditions, dirt, sand, etc. There is extensive data showing the benefits of greasing the circle pinion even when working in the most abrasive materials. Let me know if anyone wants the details.
 
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