Mitsubishi 4D32 diesel power unit in CAT 307SSR

[repowerguy]

Forgot to put this in my post sorry, but a rag wetted with gas makes a fair but somewhat hazardous substitute for a can of ether. Make sure to wear a glove.

 

[Mobiltech]

Sorry I forgot to mention a very important thing. Unhook your glow plugs or disable them before shooting in the ether. That is the only reason they don't want you using it on some diesels.
Here in Canada a lot of the heavy equipment has a can of ether in the cab for those cold starts. We seldom use it on a gas engine here.
If it runs on ether then it's almost a sure bet you have a fuel delivery issue.

 

[Pants]

Thanks Mobiltech - I would have had those glow-plugs glowing, surely, during my planned test, but I do see that might lead to adventures in EMS. It was too rainy today to give anything a try, though - even the fire-dancer method (with the gas-soaked rag...) I don't know whether I'd be more worried about lighting myself on fire or getting the rag sucked into the valves that way - extra points for both...

If the starting-fluid works, can't I just put a tank of ether on my machine and keep on diggin'?

If it turns out to be my pump, I'm thinking it was water contamination that did it in. The fuel that I pushed out of the system to flush it, before connecting the temp tank (with new diesel), combined with what I poured out of the old fuel filter, is now nicely settled in a transparent square-edged cat-food bucket, and I can see a layer of rusty water beneath it all in the corner of the bucket - might be close to a cup of it below the fuel.

Thanks all for the help thus far.

--Dave

 

[Pants]

Good info repower guy - thanks for that. I wonder if they will recognize the pump ID if it comes to that.

--Dave

 

[repowerguy]

CDS has'nt let me down yet, and Mark is a wealth of info. He can be hard to get to because he is the manager, but a great guy. I'm sure someone can chime in with someone closer than Ohio to you. There has to be good shops on the coast to keep loggers going, anyone have a guy [or gal] they use?

 

[Pants]

I'm sure someone can explain this.

Thanks Mobiltech: the engine starts IMMEDIATELY with starting fluid, and this is a huge relief. The tiniest shot does it. And it KEEPS RUNNING (...and it's running /smoothly/ now, too!) So I thought "jeez...somehow that ether must have taken me over the hump, and now...er...everything is magically OK?..."

But not quite: it won't restart without a shot of starting-fluid.

So you're thinking, "it's your glow-plugs, ya moron...", right? This is getting to be a long thread, so you might be forgiven for not recalling that earlier, I cleaned, tested, and checked power to them. They glowed bright orange - all four at once - within a second or two of getting test-power. One was slightly swollen, but other than that, no obvious physical damage. So I reinstalled them. And I rechecked that they are really /getting/ power, just now, yet again.

From testing this circuit, I found the glow-plugs get power ONLY when I'm holding the key all the way over in the 'cranking' position - not before, and not once it starts, of course. Is this not odd?

My only other glow-plug diesel is my old Benz, and in that case, the driver is supposed to turn the key to the 'run' position, let it sit for a few moments while the glow-plugs get hot, and THEN crank. That makes sense to me. But then again, this machine has never been a problem to start until now, and I've never done any "holding" before starting, ever before on the CAT.

So why won't it start without ether now? I've still got the air-filter housing out for clearance purposes, but I can't see that making much difference. I've also still got the 'for testing purposes' electric lift-pump installed, and it moves a lot more fuel than the mechanical, I think, but...that shouldn't matter, right? (I think I will go with a smaller electric in place of the mechanical one, once I get the other problems sorted out anyway.)

I'm trying to think up a way to run temp power to the plugs manually (without starting a fire) a few seconds before cranking just to see if it starts that way, but like I said, I never had to do that before, so I don't get why that would make a difference now.

What's the DEAL?

Thanks - Dave

 

[lantraxco]

Usually these machines have a position on the key switch to the LEFT of off, you turn the key to the left, hold it for a time, or sometimes there's an indicator on the panel that will glow to tell you they're hot, then turn right to start and the glow plugs continue to heat while cranking.

As to the problem starting without ether, there are several possibles, bad injectors, weak injector pump, low compression, but I am going to guess you got bad fuel that doesn't want to ignite as it should. Try draining the whole system and putting a few gallons of new fresh known good petro diesel in her and bleed it all one more time, see if that doesn't make her come to life like she should.

Good luck!

 

[Pants]

Lantraxco - thanks for the possible ignition-switch glow-position thing - not sure I've ever tried that.

But the thing is, the fuel *is* new petrodiesel, in a first-time-used temp 5-gal tank, with a first-time-used temp electric pump (all to eliminate the questionable stock mech lift pump), of course with new filter, and I flushed the hell out of the circuit before redirecting the return to the new tank. It's circulating fast - can't be a shortage of new/clean fuel at the IP inlet, surely.

Once started it will run indefinitely without stopping - but I have to start it off with that shot of ether. No signs of stopping/stumbling until I switch it off. (The elec pump draws a lot for the alligator-jumper connections I have, so I don't want to burn them up - thus I stop it after a couple of minutes max.)

I just cleaned & reassembled injectors (per previous posts) and compression is reasonably even and in the high 300s (also in previous posts). Anything else to check other than what you mentioned about a weak injector pump (and how is that checked?)

--Dave

 

[Mobiltech]

I would say weak injection pump. I have seen this before where there is not enough fuel being injected to start the engine but a shot of ether gets it going. Once it's running the pump is turning faster and can overcome internal leakage. The other option is that the rack in the ip is not moving freely into the full fuel position.
If you do anything with the pump get the injectors tested too.
If it was only a glow plug problem then it should start again after it's been running and the engine is hot.
Can you check fuel supply pressure while it's running to verify the transfer pump is ok.

 

[Pants]

...The other option is that the rack in the ip is not moving freely into the full fuel position.
...

Mobiltech,

Does this or any other diagnosis currently being floated square with the machine's having transitioned from "dependable-starter" to "can't start at all" in the space of a day?

I will swap out my temp fuel-pressure gauge to get a more precise reading on the IP inlet - it was pegging a 10psi vac/pressure mechanic's gauge and I think threw it out of range.

Is there a concern over too MUCH pressure from an electric lift pump? I'd tend to assume that this would all be handled by the return check-valve. I temporarily dropped an in-tank electric pump into my fuel can during this period, and it obviously moves a lot more fuel than I could need.

Another item nags at me - the stop solenoid. I obviously need to replace mine - the boot tore long ago and it's getting pitted with rust, though it still moves. But my question is whether there's any "fine adjustment" to the lever these move. Is it a 'binary' on/off, with no in-between settings, or if the solenoid is dragging, can it subtly affect fuel delivery?

Mahalo - Dave

 

[Pants]

The rain let up a little so I got back at this.

The temp electric fuel pump was WAY too strong - once I got a larger pressure-gauge fitted to the IP inlet, I was stunned to see that it pegged the 60psi gauge easily; it was probably putting out well over 100psi. I pulled it off and re-rigged with a clicker-style pump, but that was on the opposite end of the spectrum - 3psi maybe - and the engine wouldn't start (even with ether - just coughed a little). I decided to revert to the mech pump after watching the flow from it & judging that it was at least working somewhat. That also meant going back to the bad-smelling biodiesel I recently put in the freshly-coated rebuilt tank, but at this point it didn't seem likely that I've really got any fuel-quality problems, so I tried it.

As with the high-capacity electric pump, all it took was a shot of ether and the engine was off and running, and smoothly. I let it run for 15 minutes or longer, wanting to see the injector-return lines filling up, which they finally did. I shut it off, and immediately tried to restart - nothing. Is there a way for me to 100% test for/conclude this is indeed the "weak injection pump" as described before by lantraxco & Mobiltech? Nothing could be worse, in my mind now, than pulling it out, sending it somewhere for rebuild, spending a ton of money on a rebuild or new unit, then futzing with reinstallation for a week, only to still not get the engine to start normally. (Thinking about that scenario really does make me think I should plumb in an ether-injection port and move on...)

Usually these machines have a position on the key switch to the LEFT of off, you turn the key to the left, hold it for a time, or sometimes there's an indicator on the panel that will glow to tell you they're hot, then turn right to start and the glow plugs continue to heat while cranking...

You were right about this, though testing tells me that the plugs get timed power for but a second (max) when turning the key CCW. Hardly seems like that would be effective. If I can rig a high-current hot-lead to the injectors it will let me rule out any problem with them somehow not getting full voltage, etc.

And wouldn't you know it: my starter-motor is sounding pretty pissed about all of this now.

Mahalo - Dave

 

[Delmer]

at this point it didn't seem likely that I've really got any fuel-quality problems

Rusty water in the fuel isn't enough???

At least this biodiesel is fresh, and there (hopefully) isn't any water in the tank. I would be watching the filter like a hawk, draining a little from the tank and filter before each start up if there are drains. You have the fuel pump back to stock, so start it up some morning when you have some work to do and run it long and hard.

Don't worry about the glow plugs too much, if the ohms checked out, glow plug controllers can take temperature into account in determining how long the glow plugs stay on, assuming you're not at a high elevation, your temps don't need glow plugs.

 

[Pants]

Rusty water in the fuel isn't enough???

At least this biodiesel is fresh, and there (hopefully) isn't any water in the tank. I would be watching the filter like a hawk, draining a little from the tank and filter before each start up if there are drains. You have the fuel pump back to stock, so start it up some morning when you have some work to do and run it long and hard.

Don't worry about the glow plugs too much, if the ohms checked out, glow plug controllers can take temperature into account in determining how long the glow plugs stay on, assuming you're not at a high elevation, your temps don't need glow plugs.

Hey Delmer,

Well, yeah, I *had* rusty water in the old-old fuel - but that was the stuff I flushed through like a week ago, before changing filters. So yes, if you mean there was potentially damage from that event, but no, there's negligible new- or residual water in the system, since it's essentially a new tank, new (though smelly) biodiesel, and a new filter. Drops of new water, perhaps, but no more.

Hindsight - I've occasionally scouted ebay for a combination filter/bowl unit to retrofit these two machines, but never pulled the trigger, since I wanted a unit with a primer-pump as well, and they seem to be rare/foreign. Might have made a difference now...

I'll take your suggestion about just using the machine, once the mud dries up a little from recent rains - that will give me some more data on actual performance vs just knowing that it will idle OK.

--Dave

 

[Delmer]

That mystery device from post #16 could be a temp sensor for the glow plug controller? maybe put a cool damp rag on it and see how it starts? Was going to say ice cube but you don't want to burn out the glow plugs.

Half biodiesel/ half petro diesel and 10% ATF is what I'd run in it. Conventional wisdom is to keep the tank topped off every day so there's no room for air/condensation. That insures old fuel if the machine is seldom used... A much smaller plastic tank lets you use up the fuel quicker and still keep it full, but that's probably not of interest to you after the work you put into the original tank.

 

[Mobiltech]

I think you should look closely at the fuel shutoff solenoid. Is yours connected to a lever on the side of the injection pump? I can't find you're exact serial number . I would unhook the shutoff and move the lever manually into the full fuel on position and try starting it there.

Is this the shutoff you have on the right side of picture?

 

[Pants]

I think you should look closely at the fuel shutoff solenoid. Is yours connected to a lever on the side of the injection pump? I can't find you're exact serial number . I would unhook the shutoff and move the lever manually into the full fuel on position and try starting it there.

Is this the shutoff you have on the right side of picture?

Mobiltech...I hope you're on to something. Yes, my solenoid is connected via rose-joint to a lever on the side of the IP. The lever has a LOT of potential travel. Solenoid moves only about...maybe 3/8" or so. It definitely STOPS the engine - then resets itself after a time-delay of a few seconds, to the ready-to-start position, or so it has seemed...but I was/am still concerned that it's not resetting itself to wherever it needs to be, in that range of travel. So I infer there's a range, and not just "go/no-go" to that stop-lever?

"Full fuel on position" = as far towards the front of the engine (radiator) as possible, aka full CW rotation, then?

If it matters, my solenoid isn't exactly like the one in your drawing, but similar. Just a couple of hours ago I started ebay-ing for a replacement, as a matter of fact, to cover all bases and because mine's pretty ugly, with a torn boot from biodiesel soaking. Mine is the one in the following link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/171353786548?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (though I'm trying to negotiate one that's about a third of this price and maybe identical...)

BUT:
I'm kinda hosed for a week, I suspect, since indeed, my starter is toast. It was making some awful noises, and I found on disassembly that the back bearing is well on its way to disintegration, and the gearbox is full of metal shavings. I will almost certainly order one and have to wait for it - gonna make some calls locally Tuesday, but the buy-local penalty for something like that is probably 300%.

(Unless you/others suggest otherwise, I will probably post separately to ask about replacing my ring-gear - some pretty bad segments in the teeth - since this thread is longish already.)

 

[Mobiltech]

I would just unhook the shutoff and move the lever on the pump all the way cw and see if it starts. Most shutoff levers move from stop to stop when operating properly .

 

[Mobiltech]

If your shut off looks like this then it should pull in and turn the shaft ccw to run.

 

[Pants]

Hey Mobiltech,

Since my solenoid (and starter) are now out, I substituted a test-light to verify the stop-solenoid action - I don't trust my recollection or tests from a few days ago. So: stop-solenoid gets power by timer, and ONLY for the 3 seconds or so after the keyswitch is returned to OFF. No power to it at any other time.

Also, I got the best view I've ever had of it today by sticking a camera down in that tight space. I may have confused things before by making wrong assumptions about the shaft-rotation from the lever mounted on it being CW/CCW - but anyway, the photo makes it clear that the shaft gets pulled CW by the solenoid to STOP, and 'relaxes' (under internal spring) to RUN, in the CCW position:



Also shown in the photo, though, there's about 10 degrees of 'snag' left in the shaft rotation, with the internal spring apparently not being strong enough to bring the shaft back fully CCW to hit the stop. I'd like to hang my hat on that being the lingering non-re-start problem, but I won't be able to test it until I get a new starter here... from Eastern Tennessee...

I can manually twist the shaft back to hit the stop, but the internal spring doesn't seem to do it. Might just be a buildup of gunk? Would that be a clock-spring under the lever/cover on the end of that shaft? Do we think that's really the problem, or are these go/no-go components with no shades of gray, so my problem will persist? Wish I could test it now, but gotta wait for the new starter.

If it's useful to know, the apparent p/n on the IP is ND-PES4A90D321RND459 (and more numbers...)

--Dave

 

[Mobiltech]

The arm does need to go all the way to the stop for proper starting. Sounds like a definite maybe.