1. Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!
  2. ALL NEW MEMBERS READ THIS FIRST!! Thank you for joining Heavy Equipment Forums! If you are new to forums we communicate with "Threads", please search our threads to see if your topic may have already been answered and if not then click "Post New Thread" in the appropriate forum. This will allow all of our members to see your question and give you the best chance to be answered. After you've made a number of posts you will graduate to Full Member status where you'll see a few more privileges. Following these guidelines will help make this the best resource for heavy equipment on the net. Thanks for joining us and I hope you enjoy your stay!!

Michigan 175A, GM ?Detroit? Diesel won't run. Bleed injectors?

Discussion in 'Wheel Loaders' started by ddiiggy, Nov 20, 2013.

  1. ddiiggy

    ddiiggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    64
    Location:
    MT
    I have this loader that has been sitting for ~10 years. Trying to get it running.

    Fuel tank had ~an inch of fuel in it. Looks like OK stuff. Poured in another 5 gallons.

    Cranked the engine over. Gave it a sniff of starting fluid and it started right up. :) Yay.
    It ran for ~ one minute and started loosing power, wouldn't rev anymore, finally died. :(

    Took the fuel filters off. They look good. Filled them up with new fuel and put back on.

    I pressurize the fuel tank and got fuel to the fitting on the end of the tube coming from the tank. (RED line in my picture)
    I got fuel to the outlet of the first filter, so the filter is filled. (Start of BLUE line in my picture)
    I got fuel to the other end of that (BLUE) tube to the ?intake? of the ?pump?. (Filled the BLUE line in my picture)
    I got fuel out the other side of the ?pump?. (Start of PURPLE line in my picture)
    I got fuel to the fitting at the top of the (PURPLE) line to intake of the ?secondary? filter. (Filled the PURPLE line in my picture)
    I got fuel to the outlet of the second filter, so the filter is filled. (Start of GREEN line in my picture)
    The other end of that (GREEN) tube goes into the block somewhere.

    I kept air pressure in the fuel tank and tried starting, NO GO. :(
    A sniff of starting fluid in the air intake and it almost acts like it might run but no kick.

    NOW WHAT?

    Do I need to bleed injectors somewhere? I don't see coiled tubes from a pump going to individual injectors.
    I see allen head plugs on this left side of the engine but nothing that looks like injectors or covers.
    Are there injectors inside the covers on the right side of the engine? I expected that was valves. Didn't crack them open.

    P1010011M.jpg P1010011.jpg P1010009.jpg P1010007M.jpg
     
  2. td15c

    td15c Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    188
    Location:
    IL
    the injectors are under the valve cover the rack could be stuck after it sat that long.
     
  3. ddiiggy

    ddiiggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    64
    Location:
    MT
    The rack is fuel or valves?
    It would run for a minute or so if the rack is stuck?
     
  4. td15c

    td15c Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    188
    Location:
    IL
    the rack is under the valve cover it is connected to each injector it moves a lever on the injector that regulates the fuel. its been a long time since I worked on one.
    there are better Detroit mechanic on this forum then me. but I hope this helps.
     
  5. ben46a

    ben46a Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2007
    Messages:
    773
    Location:
    Waverley NS/Fort Mac AB
    First of all, make sure the emergency shutoff cable works and isn't seized up. Then take the air cleaner out and find a board or plate that will cover the intake hole incase it runs away. I'm guessing the rack is stuck. Its under the valve cover on top. Usually can be freed up with gentle working over by a flathead screw driver and some fresh lubricant. Detroits are tough but finicky after sitting. Known for stuck racks and running away, but have a surprising survival rate. Also, I seem to recall that the fuel punmp drive can frig up,strip or break. But its been a while. Also, its a unit injector so there no real easy way to bleed them short of cranking it.
     
  6. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    12,474
    Occupation:
    Service Manager
    Location:
    Knoxville TN
    That's a Detroit 4-71. Make sure the emergency shut down lever hasn't been tripped.



    Detroit 4-71.jpg
     
  7. ddiiggy

    ddiiggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    64
    Location:
    MT
    I did take the air cleaner out before I started. It was nasty.
    Got a metal can the fits over the intake hole if needed.
    I will check on the shut down lever and then may have to operate on the rack...


    I did see that lever thing and recognized that it was some kind of cable or wire attachment.
    Thanks for the arrow to know what you are talking about. I probably would have messed with the throttle linkage...
    There is nothing attached to that connector and it doesn't move easy.
    I did wiggled it a little but didn't get it to move enough that I though it did anything right now.
    One more thing to check on though...

    The throttle connects to a linkage up high and to the rear:
    P1010014M.jpg
    I don't know what that electric motor looking thing is. I couldn't see any wires going to it. ??

    If I push the throttle linkage completely closed it does snap back and I thought that was the shut down.
    It probably does shut down but not as completely as the emergency shut down lever.
     
  8. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    12,474
    Occupation:
    Service Manager
    Location:
    Knoxville TN
    Can you snap two more pics for me please.

    (1) a better view of the emergency shutdown I referred to (pointed out by red arrow).

    and

    (2) of that thing you described as an electric motor looking thing. That's actually the governor that controls the throttle, can you snap a pic looking down from above as best you can.

    Thanks
     
  9. 2005kes2005

    2005kes2005 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2011
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    BC
    had the same problem in a pettibone forklift with 453
    the issue was in the govenor- mechanic reset the govenor to ensure worked fine
    no issue 3000 hrs since
    If the loader has been sitting for 10 years- dump the tranny oil and refill.
    The oil will have lost its viscocity and you can smoke the clutch packs
    M
     
  10. ddiiggy

    ddiiggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    64
    Location:
    MT



    This is what I think you are referring to as the emergency shutdown.
    P1010001.jpg
    It rotates a little bit but doesn't MOVE. I don't see a bracket or whatever a cable would have been attached to.
    It looks like it might have a detent ball or something inside that i might need to whack it gently to get it to move.
    I can't tell which way it is supposed to go to be RUNNING. ??
    How do I reset it if it has been activated?


    Here is a picture from a little further back...
    P1010002M.jpg


    It looks like there is a shaft that runs clear through that (air intake?) case.
    P1010004M.jpg


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The throttle rod and governor has some kind of interlock.
    The link from the LEFT is the one that comes from the throttle foot pedal.
    P1010005.jpg




    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------





    This shaft goes up to the floorboard of the cab.
    NOT a throttle link. Looks like maybe shutdown.
    P1010010M.jpg
    These rods won't hardly move either, so I don't think that is what made it fade out and shut down.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Any further suggestions, keep them coming. Thanks.
     
  11. hector gemme

    hector gemme Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2008
    Messages:
    59
    Location:
    Ste-Julie
    You could removed the blower intake cover side and you could see the screen if he is't plug and the same time you could see the emergency trapp how she is working
     
  12. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    12,474
    Occupation:
    Service Manager
    Location:
    Knoxville TN
    I've worked on a bunch of Detroits and that's the first time I've seen the emergency shutdown have a gizmo like that on it, they typically used a spring loaded latch like a mouse trap trip mechanism. You are correct, there is a shaft that runs all the way through the blower case, from one side to the other. That shaft controls a flap that blocks the air intake to kill the engine in case either the governor flips out or the engine loses a piston and starts feeding on engine oil. You may be able to disconnect that air intake hose and get a look down in the blower intake pipe to make sure the flap isn't closed.

    It is curious that the engine ran for a few moments, then died, even though you have filters full of fuel. Not knowing what has happened, I think I would remove the valve cover and make certain the fuel rack is moving freely as mentioned by TD25C. Another thing I would check is to make sure the blower drive shaft hasn't stripped out. Remove the flexible air intake hose and have a helper crank the engine. While it's cranking slip a piece of 3/4" thick plywood over the intake pipe to see if it has intake vacuum, if it doesn't there's a problem with the blower and it won't run at all.

    That's a strange arrangement that Michigan put on it for the fuel shut off with all the links and cranks. You need to get those links freed up to kill the engine once you do get it sorted out. Looking down from the top (in your pic) the lever/shaft toward radiator is the shut down, the lever/shaft toward operators cab is the throttle control.
     
  13. grandpa

    grandpa Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,786
    Location:
    northern minnesota
    Take the purple line off at the secondary filter, crank it over with the starter and see if the pump is at least pumping fuel on its own.... those old Detroit's had a restrictor valve where the fuel line comes back out of the head on the return to the tank... if that valve is plugged with crap, it won't run either.
     
  14. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2009
    Messages:
    5,251
    Location:
    indiana
    Priming Detroit with air

    Remove the return line at the fuel tank & stick the end of it in a bucket to catch the fuel.

    Put about 5 psi on the fitting at the tank and have a buddy crank on the engine until fuel starts flowing from the return line into the bucket.

    If you are just putting air on the tank without removing the return line the fuel system cant flow & prime itself with air pressure.;)
     
  15. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    12,474
    Occupation:
    Service Manager
    Location:
    Knoxville TN

    Exactly, return line has to be removed at tank to prime with air. And correct as well, you have to be cranking the engine as a Detroit has a gear fuel pump, no fuel will pass through the fuel pump unless it's turning.

    Additionally, while pressurizing tank and cranking, make sure fuel is coming out of return line in bucket. If not, restrictor fitting in head mentioned by gramps is clogged.
     
  16. OFF

    OFF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2009
    Messages:
    773
    Occupation:
    HD Mechanic/Shop Foreman
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    the fuel transfer pump (gear pump) can be a real b1tch when they lose their prime. Sitting for years would do that. What I do is hook a 12 volt inline pump between the tank and the gear pump, pressure it up, and start cranking. Make sure the filters are full too before you start.

    The Detroit techs actually have a hand pump setup they use for this. Does the same thing.
     
  17. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    12,474
    Occupation:
    Service Manager
    Location:
    Knoxville TN
    My God OFF, you have knowledge of the JLG 40F, and now you reveal you have knowledge of the old green leakers, you do realize you're showing your age, no? :D
     
  18. OFF

    OFF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2009
    Messages:
    773
    Occupation:
    HD Mechanic/Shop Foreman
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Yes, I have been exposed to a few detroits over the "years". :D We still have a few (about 10) in use even.
    I would much rather have a man to man fist fight with an old green leaker any day than try to wrap my head around how a Cummins ISC can be shut down by a faulty low coolant level sensor without even throwing a code :Banghead
     
  19. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    12,474
    Occupation:
    Service Manager
    Location:
    Knoxville TN
    Ditto! :drinkup
     
  20. Outasite

    Outasite Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    Mi
    The cylinder head holds enough fuel to run about a minute or two.Sounds like the gear type charge pump at the end of the engine did not prime.You may want to start by putting a small fuel supply above the charge pump,get a syphon going then plug into the charge pump and crank.The cylinder head acts as a fuel tank of sorts,as long as it's full it feeds the injectors.When it's full it returns to the tank.