looking to purchase TLB for 30 acre hillside homestead in NY

[ofenback]

hello people who know more then me!

this is my first post so lemme know if this topic has been discussed before and i'l check out the other threads.
I think I'm in a similar situation as Luckydog so if you'r out there, get in touch, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

i'm looking to pick up a tractor/loader/backhoe for homeowner use here in the Hudson Valley New York. I'm in the shawangunk mountains just near minnewaska state park.

I've gotta pull out a lot of stumps, move big rocks, spread stone on my driveway and generally get this place in shape. The issue is that I'm basically on a hillside with about a 1/4 mile of driveway that someone said is at about an 8% grade.

I rented a kubota U-55 for about 12 days in November to clear for a fruit tree orchard which was great but expensive. that cost me about $2100 and it was nice being on a well taken care of, fairly new machine that could dig and move heavy items. she's a 6 ton machine that didn't mind moving 10-20" oak stumps and my 30" diameter white pine stump.

the point is, I'd love to buy an excavator but they're even more $$ and I figured the FEL bucket would be great for moving dirt long distances.

my 5 year plan is to do all this heavy grunt work with a big machine and then sell it to buy something smaller, newer and lighter for use around the orchard and general property maintenance and possibly loading/moving smallish logs if I get a mill.

not much out of the 30 acres needs tractor attention. it's mostly wooded and we intend to leave it that way, with the exception of maybe a little more clearing for a garage, sheds, maybe a cabin in the future, but I can rent a machine to deal with some of that if I'm on a later timeline.... but it's not a farm, it's a wooded lot on a ridge in the mountains. my main issue is the driveway.

the biggest immediate job that confronts me is my driveway. .....it's gravel with ditches on either side. before we bought, previous folks would clear the ditches with an excavator and just empty the bucket on the side of the driveway. so over the years we now have these 5, 7, 10 foot high berms on the sides of the driveway with 10-20" dia oaks growing out of them. I've got to clean all this up because there's no place to plow the snow and if you end up with a wheel in the ditch you can roast the entire side of your vehicle with the roots, rocks and dirt on this berm by the time you get out.

I need a big machine to:
-help me move logs once I cut down the trees along the banks
-move big rocks
-dig big stumps
-move a bunch of dirt around
-open up the mouth of the driveway and create a few turnouts
-grade driveway, and spread item/stone/shale/whatever
-dig some French drains, swales etc...(could poss use smaller machine for that depending....)
-other unforeseen stuff

my budget is about 15k and I'm leaning towards a late 80s early 90s John Deere 410, 510 or 710.

i'm specifically looking for opinions regarding HP necessary for pulling buckets of rocks up hill, dragging logs up hill and the best transmission style for it. and of course any other helpful info will be much allreciated. i've spent a few hundred hours on excavators and loaders over the years, but I still consider myself a rookie.

I was looking at a Ford 555B and read some poor reviews so I passed on it. Since then i've been told that 4 x 4 is a must, at least 100 hp, and that a geared transmission is more stable for climbing. For those reasons and a few others i'm leaning towards the JD machines.

I'm sure I'll get as many opinions as there are machines available and I'm looking forward to them. Thanks in advance and hopefully this thread can help anybody else in this situation BEFORE they buy a machine not suited to the tasks. so THANK YOU for making mistakes that I hopefully don't have to make (but will surely make others!!)

 

[HankTO]

ofenback the machine your looking for is out there. Be patient and prepared to visit a lot of equipment. I was in the same situation and was looking for a machine to fit my needs. I visted auctions (where people get caught up in the moment and over pay). Anyway I put the word out that I was looking and a coworker led me to the machine I purchased.I looked at a lot of machines before hand that were rode hard and put away wet. My machine is a 1984 JD 310B. Dont get me wrong it shows its age in appearance and comfort options but it was well maintained and operates strong and solid. Not having much experience I can only offer a few things to consider.Are parts available, is the engine blowby excessive, tightness of joints, condition of tires, the hours (dont be too afraid if maintenace was done as recomended). Also unless you have a way to haul this will be an added exspence.I just changed all my fluids and filters which adds up. Anyways there is a lot of info on the web to review when considering a machine. I feel you wont go wrong with a JD.Definately go with a 4WD if you can, mine is only 2WD which I make work. From your descriptions of I believe a 410 machine would work fine. Good luck and happy hunting.

 

[xgiovannix12]

2wd machines are just as good as a 4wd . I have a 580c and I go anywhere with it. in the winter months I put chains on it and move snow with it. When looking at a machine inspect it good. Look for cracks , blowby , play in the pins and bushings. Check everything for leaks. Whats your price range your looking to spend.. A 4wd machine will be a pretty penny but its worth it.

Im the guy who inspected luckydogs machine and worked on it to get it in tiptop shape. I wish you the best of luck

 

[Finca SDR]

Don't worry too much about an excavator, In my opinion for general land use a backhoe is the most versatile machine there is. Besides general digging, the bucket is super useful and a tracked machine would be kind of tedious to turn on to haul two dozen sacks of compost to the new field or carry cinder blocks to the new building site or whatever. In addition, with the rubber tires you can drive on paved roads if you ever want to take it over to your neighbor's house or do a job for someone a mile away. And if you ever think a backhoe tire is expensive, i think tracks cost more... Anyways, I like backhoes as a general purpose machine.

Perhaps buy a brand that has a dealer or other good parts outlet and tech support nearby you? I got a deere but should've gotten a cat cuz the only parts and tech support available in this quarter of the country are cat. NY probably has better availability than that, though. Don't get me wrong the deere is good, but parts are difficult to get here.

My machine is a '97 and has a torque converter like an automatic transmission and all kinds of electric solenoids. After fixing it a lot it works well, but I wonder how old you'd have to go to find one with a proper clutch transmission and old school linkages and cables you can fix with a hammer and tie wire? Then, for machines that old , are parts available?

 

[Delmer]

I don't think any of your wants are relevant. The most important thing is your budget and the condition of the particular machine you're able to find. Maybe I'd stay away from oddballs, like a Dynahoe, or a 710! but if you know what you're looking at, or have somebody who does, then even an exceptional deal on an oddball might be the best way to go. A good condition 4x4 backhoe is going to be hard to find for $15K, I'm guessing. Who suggested a geared transmission on a backhoe? A torque converter is the ONLY way to go if you ever want to load with the front bucket. The 710 is a straight powershift, avoid it, you want a TC. Most everything else is a torque converter with a reverser and a gear transmission. Don't get one with a clutch and gear transmission with no torque converter.

It's nice to be able to walk into a local deere dealer and get parts off the shelf, but that's a pretty small convenience in the scheme of things. Parts are available for everything somewhere. Most likely you're not going to have the dealer doing most of the work on a $15k backhoe, and you're not going to be able to expect it to be up and running all the time either. Being down a few days waiting on mail order parts is not going to make a big difference in the usefullness like it would on a machine that was on a big job and no dealer available, or the part is a week away when the deadline is near.

 

[Finca SDR]

Hi Delmer, don't want to sidetrack the conversation but I'm curious why you wouldn't want a regular clutch transmission like an old farm tractor? I understand it may be less convenient to drive but I had a lot of trouble with my torque converter and reverser combo which made me fantasize about a cable clutch and big geared transmission. I know it doesn't exist these days but what part am I missing?

 

[xgiovannix12]

its all personal preference

 

[ofenback]

ofenback the machine your looking for is out there. Be patient and prepared to visit a lot of equipment. I was in the same situation and was looking for a machine to fit my needs. I visted auctions (where people get caught up in the moment and over pay). Anyway I put the word out that I was looking and a coworker led me to the machine I purchased.I looked at a lot of machines before hand that were rode hard and put away wet. My machine is a 1984 JD 310B. Dont get me wrong it shows its age in appearance and comfort options but it was well maintained and operates strong and solid. Not having much experience I can only offer a few things to consider.Are parts available, is the engine blowby excessive, tightness of joints, condition of tires, the hours (dont be too afraid if maintenace was done as recomended). Also unless you have a way to haul this will be an added exspence.I just changed all my fluids and filters which adds up. Anyways there is a lot of info on the web to review when considering a machine. I feel you wont go wrong with a JD.Definately go with a 4WD if you can, mine is only 2WD which I make work. From your descriptions of I believe a 410 machine would work fine. Good luck and happy hunting.

hankTO thanks for the words of encouragement. I feel like it's out there too but certainly i'l need to be patient and learn what to look for. obviously I'd rather walk away 30 times then buy something that dissapoints. I'm not too concerned with the appearance of her just for the sake of appearance. I realize that if it looks beat up, it probably is but I'm not buying it to impress anybody. so we'l see how things shake out in the next few months. 2 questions for you...what engine/HP transmission style does your 310 have?
and lastly, do you find you've got plenty of power for hills with full buckets?

thanks for the info! be safe

 

[ofenback]

2wd machines are just as good as a 4wd . I have a 580c and I go anywhere with it. in the winter months I put chains on it and move snow with it. When looking at a machine inspect it good. Look for cracks , blowby , play in the pins and bushings. Check everything for leaks. Whats your price range your looking to spend.. A 4wd machine will be a pretty penny but its worth it.

Im the guy who inspected luckydogs machine and worked on it to get it in tiptop shape. I wish you the best of luck

xgiovannix12 thanks for the heads up. so lucky dog is happy with his 580? what do you personally see as the difference between the case machines vs the deere. another, question for you, when cylinder seals begin to fail, where do you draw the line between a "weep" and a "leak". I've seen a few machines with wetness under the hoses and asked about it and gotten the old "ahhh that's nothin, all hoses do that....this thing is solid...blah blah....". and any thoughts you have on hill operation or HP/transmission style would help as well. thanks for your info and opinions.

 

[ofenback]

Don't worry too much about an excavator, In my opinion for general land use a backhoe is the most versatile machine there is. Besides general digging, the bucket is super useful and a tracked machine would be kind of tedious to turn on to haul two dozen sacks of compost to the new field or carry cinder blocks to the new building site or whatever. In addition, with the rubber tires you can drive on paved roads if you ever want to take it over to your neighbor's house or do a job for someone a mile away. And if you ever think a backhoe tire is expensive, i think tracks cost more... Anyways, I like backhoes as a general purpose machine.

Perhaps buy a brand that has a dealer or other good parts outlet and tech support nearby you? I got a deere but should've gotten a cat cuz the only parts and tech support available in this quarter of the country are cat. NY probably has better availability than that, though. Don't get me wrong the deere is good, but parts are difficult to get here.

My machine is a '97 and has a torque converter like an automatic transmission and all kinds of electric solenoids. After fixing it a lot it works well, but I wonder how old you'd have to go to find one with a proper clutch transmission and old school linkages and cables you can fix with a hammer and tie wire? Then, for machines that old , are parts available?

yes I agree. I have to be able to go across the street so i'l need rubber and i'l also need to be able to put stuff in the bucket and move it to another location...(your compost analogy is spot on). I'm even considering putting forks on the front for logs and possibly pallets of firewood. in addition, seems like x's and skid steers have replaced a bunch of TLB's so I figure I've got a bit ( just a bit) more of an opportunity to find something I can afford.

I'm in a fairly good spot for Deere dealers, got a few within 30 miles.

Cat's are the **** but I think finding an older cat I can afford will be even more difficult then the already difficult prospect of finding a good 4x4 tlb that hasn't been completely abused. I'm going to need to be very diligent AND get lucky.

so based on what your saying, the industry generally moved away from clutched transmissions? my buddy has a 650 Dozer and he was explaining that's what I'd want for my hills. his rationale was that a first gear on a geared transmission is going to be a real low granny gear and it will be lower then the lowest on an automatic tranny, (if I understand correctly..)
he commented that an automatic will generally have to work a bit harder and will HEAT up more then a clutched system and the heat is my enemy regarding longevity. anyway, I'm just repeating what I was told, can't offer any experience.. does that make sense to any of you guys out there or is that nonsense?
thanks as always!

 

[ofenback]

I don't think any of your wants are relevant. The most important thing is your budget and the condition of the particular machine you're able to find. Maybe I'd stay away from oddballs, like a Dynahoe, or a 710! but if you know what you're looking at, or have somebody who does, then even an exceptional deal on an oddball might be the best way to go. A good condition 4x4 backhoe is going to be hard to find for $15K, I'm guessing. Who suggested a geared transmission on a backhoe? A torque converter is the ONLY way to go if you ever want to load with the front bucket. The 710 is a straight powershift, avoid it, you want a TC. Most everything else is a torque converter with a reverser and a gear transmission. Don't get one with a clutch and gear transmission with no torque converter.

It's nice to be able to walk into a local deere dealer and get parts off the shelf, but that's a pretty small convenience in the scheme of things. Parts are available for everything somewhere. Most likely you're not going to have the dealer doing most of the work on a $15k backhoe, and you're not going to be able to expect it to be up and running all the time either. Being down a few days waiting on mail order parts is not going to make a big difference in the usefullness like it would on a machine that was on a big job and no dealer available, or the part is a week away when the deadline is near.

funny you mention the Dynahoe, my neighbor has one!! it's been sitting in his yard for about 10 years cuz he can't deal with it. even had a guy come sort out the engine, got her up and running, thought I'd use it around here.... he tried to do some simple dirt moving on his land and the tranny completely lost power. so now it continues to sit. and yes, yes, and yes, absolutely....finding something 4x4 in good shape for 15k will be hard...we'l see...
I could settle on 2wd, I don't plan on messing around in the snow with it, I really need it for serious landscaping which I ain't doin in the winter.
and interesting about the 710, I didn't know it was considered oddball, will lookout.

I do have a friend who has some equipment and he's the one I got my info from regarding clutched geared transmissions. as I said in another response, he showed me the setup on his Deere 650 LGP and suggested that's what I want. it's 4 fwd and 4 reverse. is that a TC?
obviously there's no loader bucket or steering wheel on a dozer so perhaps trying to do several things at once on a TLB is where the TC comes in but I'm just going on what I've been told and trying to evaluate the info.

I guess I need to research a little more in depth the diff between clutched, geared, torque converter and power shift, shuttle shift and the others...(if there are others..) I get the idea with HST, my Honda snowblower has one as did my wife Prius I think.

I will most def NOT have the dealer doing MOST anything on this machine as a simple transport will cost me $$$ and I'm quite sure I won't be having all my problems fixed in a single visit.
I guess it's wise to expect downtime. (grunt groan) it'l be frustrating at the time I'm sure,...stuff usually goes down when ya need it most, but in my situation having limited funds, I suppose some downtime is the price i pay for not having more $$$ to begin with. I can rationalize that. it's not like i'l be on a big job with a paying customer and a deadline. my problems will most likely be season based annoyances.. e.g. " well, looks like we can't spread item#4 before the snow hits because the backhoe needs a new _____ and we'r gettin a noreaster on tues..". yea, I guess it's wise to expect **** like that. i'l try to be calm when it happens and remember this conversation!!

thanks for info Delmer. I'l do my homework on transmission styles and get back to ya.

 

[ofenback]

its all personal preference

for me it's about reliability. and a little dose of resale value, but primarily I'm going for the most bulletproof, fewest moving pieces, easiest to fix. I don't care if it takes me 50% longer to move dirt then a dude in a machine with all the bells and whistles.. I ain't gettin paid by the bucket. come to think of it I ain't gettin paid at all!!

I guess all I mean is I'm on my own timeline. so even if I'm slow I'd rather spend 2 hrs digging and moving a stump then spend 2 hrs on youtube trying to figure out how to split a machine to replace a part or 2 hrs trying to find a part.

I'm interested in an almost military build quality. designed to withstand all kinds of abuse and easy to fix. (not that a F-16 is easy to fix, but you get the idea). I'm only 90 miles from Manhattan but you'd never know it up here. I'm planning on leaving this machine better then I find it, as is my standard M.O., but if something big breaks it might be a while before I can come up with the $ and get it moved to a dealer to repair it.

I'm prolly being a little too idealistic I know.
but in a perfect world....

 

[showrguy]

Ore back, I think you're overthinking this clutch, torque converter, shuttle shift, thing..
I have an 82 JD 410 at home, and a 79 JD 310 at my camp, both machines are built like tanks..
Both are 2wd, this past winter we had a 32" snow storm, I got all my stuff cleared, my buddy calls, he has a 4wd CAT and somehow could not get through a drifted spot on his mile long driveway, he came and borrowed my chains, had his road open in no time...
With up to 15K to spend you should be able to find a real nice older 2wd machine..
My 2 cents

 

[ofenback]

Ore back, I think you're overthinking this clutch, torque converter, shuttle shift, thing..
I have an 82 JD 410 at home, and a 79 JD 310 at my camp, both machines are built like tanks..
Both are 2wd, this past winter we had a 32" snow storm, I got all my stuff cleared, my buddy calls, he has a 4wd CAT and somehow could not get through a drifted spot on his mile long driveway, he came and borrowed my chains, had his road open in no time...
With up to 15K to spend you should be able to find a real nice older 2wd machine..
My 2 cents

yeah I hear that loud and clear. That was my original plan, until it was suggested to me that with my terrain I should really find a four-wheel-drive. And, it was also suggested that the first time I get the machine in stock and I don't have a larger machine to retrieve it with, I'm going to regret not having four-wheel-drive. But from what I'm hearing, a lot of guys have great results with chains on the rear tires… I imagine that helps especially if the tires are worn. additionally, it would seem to me that if you have a working bucket and a working back so you should be able to get yourself out of all but the toughest jams…

and yes, I could be overthinking the transmission thing, just trying to suss out what folks have opinions about what... What style transmissions do you have on your 310 and 410?

 

[ofenback]

there are a couple missed words in that last post, but you get the idea.

 

[showrguy]

there are a couple missed words in that last post, but you get the idea.

Both machines have a clutch pedal, have 4 speed transmission with hi/low selector, and shuttle shift (fwd/rev) on the column...
In 18 years I've only used 1st gear low, twice, to push over 20" plus trees,,,, it's so low you never use it..
Most of my time on either machine is spent in 3rd gear low..

 

[Delmer]

the first time I get the machine in stock and I don't have a larger machine to retrieve it with, I'm going to regret not having four-wheel-drive.

...additionally, it would seem to me that if you have a working bucket and a working back so you should be able to get yourself out of all but the toughest jams…

Absolutely. Four wheel drive is not going to keep you from getting stuck and not going to help you get out, not one bit. It WILL allow you to back out of situations WITHOUT dumping your load, so you can do work that isn't possible with a 2wd, not worth it in your situation.

First gear in any backhoe is plenty low for anything that needs to be done. A torque converter behind a diesel engine acts different than a car with an automatic transmission. Going slow and backing are no problem, you don't have to line up a pin usually. The torque converter will hold you back going down any hill as long as the tires don't loose their grip. Your buddy with the dozer should stick to what he knows. Just which model of clutch gear trans backhoe did he suggest??? A dozer can spin the tracks if it stalls, and is more often used like a grader for long pushes than a backhoe is. The wheels and power to weight of a backhoe tend to make it operate at a faster ground speed, it doesn't like to spin the tires. Try to find a front end loader with a dry clutch, like 950, 544, w14 or whatever, you'll have to go back to the 50's. Same with backhoe loaders, I don't know how old you'd have to look to find a clutch machine. Deere (and maybe Case?) made straight powershift backhoes, avoid them. MORE complicated, LESS effective.

 

[Billrog]

If your on steep country a 4wd is a very good thing to have 2 wheel back brakes will not hold you back on a steep hill very well even a little wet and you slide down the hill. I had 2 wheel drives and live on steep property resulting in many scare situations.

 

[xgiovannix12]

my 2wd does good on hills the brakes will lock up my rear wheels making me slide lol

 

[HankTO]

hankTO thanks for the words of encouragement. I feel like it's out there too but certainly i'l need to be patient and learn what to look for. obviously I'd rather walk away 30 times then buy something that dissapoints. I'm not too concerned with the appearance of her just for the sake of appearance. I realize that if it looks beat up, it probably is but I'm not buying it to impress anybody. so we'l see how things shake out in the next few months. 2 questions for you...what engine/HP transmission style does your 310 have?
and lastly, do you find you've got plenty of power for hills with full buckets?

thanks for the info! be safe

Ofenback the engine is a 219 ci diesel rated at 64 hp. The transmisision is a manual transmision with 8 forward gears and a shuttle shift (automatic) for selecting forward and reverse. As far as pulling a hill with a load not a problem at all in low range but low range speeds are slow. I believe the top speed is around 16 mph and that is in high range 8th gear. All that is fine for me cause I am using the machine for my personal use not to make a living so I am not in a hurry. I hope this helps.