looking to buy a backhoe, any advice

[Randy88]

I'm considering buying a backhoe, I've run some case and jd models only the older ones and not much, I'm considering a case model 580D or 580E with cab and only 2 wheel drive, I don't think I need 4x4, if its that bad out I'll take an excavator instead, I'm not really planning on a lot of hours each year, just easier to move for job to job by driving a backhoe is the main reason and keep my excavator free for other jobs. Can anyone tell me the main differences in the models of case, other than the engine in a D is a case and the E runs a cummins. Which model could you get two stick controls in or neither, and about deere, anything on any of those models in the same era as the case? Its been 15 years since I ran a deere and don't remember what model it was, maybe a 310? Don't really need extenda hoe, I've run them and they are nice but for what I'm doing with it, not really necessary nor really want anything more to maintain, just a pretty bare bones machine with a cab and heater. Been looking at the auctions and the price is right on those machines, unless a newer model isn't much more and if so what model and what to look for?

 

[NFDDJS]

I would not even look at a backhoe that isnt 4x4. What kind of work are you looking at doing? What is the terrain like? Sand, mud, snow?

 

[mitch504]

I have a Case 580 superK, and I like it a lot more than any of the prior models.

If you plan to do a lot of loader work, 4x4 is worth it's weight in gold. If you don't , you don't need it.

When I bought my sK, I was adding it to a pair of Fords, and I thought an extendahoe wasn't wanted, but there was one on my machine. Now, after having it for 12 years, I wouldn't be without it. It saves a lot of repositioning, and has only cost me maybe $100 in all that time.

Good luck,
Mitch

 

[ScottAR]

The engine is the biggie... Smaller items are the D has a two part hydraulic pump. The power steering pump is built in but a separate system. The E uses a priority valve setup. I'm sure there's more but those are the larger items. Case actually used to offer a kit to put a cummins in a D series but I dunno if it's still available.

E series was the first to offer 4x4. My D doesn't have it and I wish it did.

 

[mitch504]

NFDDJS,

I didn't mean to sound like I was differing w/ you on the 4x4, I hadn't seen your post when I put mine up.

I also wouldn't consider a 2wd, since I use mine as a loader about 70% of the time. If the job has a lot of hoe work, I'll take an excavator.

Mitch

 

[Randy88]

We do a lot of ag tiling and always take an excavator and a dozer, but if the weather is bad I have those available, I've used a K model case with 4x4 and extendahoe and didn't really use either feature much if at all, like I said earlier I'll just take those instead when its muddy out, we are just trying to add another machine to help out and not break the bank, if we find its going to be used more than I think, I'll just update then after we have an idea how much we're going to use it, we have also considered a mini ex but then I have tracks to clean out and still need two machines to take everwhere. I have avoided buying one for years now because I didn't want to do a lot of so called backhoe work, its not my intent to do that type of work, but there is a tremendous demand for it in my area, just not sure how much of it I want to do, if this is looking like I'll offend more people by having it and turning down the work I'll just sell it and keep doing what I'm doing now, I'm actually looking to expand some in another area, we're just trying to speed up and save the time spent trucking mahcines to and from job sites, but this might come back to bite me in the butt, I don't know yet. I'm not all that excited to go fix a waterline burts in the middle of the night in -40 below weather or when I'm so busy with my money making jobs I end up turning down work and ticking people off.

Is the E model with the cummins a much better deal for the money, there's not that much difference in price between the two, as far as operating them whats different? I've run about a half dozen case machines over the years but the K was the newest one, can't recall the others though for the life of me, thats been too many years ago now, but I'm thinking one was a E model and don't remember anything about it other than it was a two stick, open cab and 2 wheel drive and standard stick machine, then the guy traded it off for a K with 4x4 and extendahoe, ran that one some too, nicer I recall but back then I went to a mid sized excavator instead and to me at the time it was the right decision for the work I do.

For you backhoe guys that are in the business a lot can you turn backhoe work down from a customer and still keep his other work, say like dirt work, does that fly or once you turn some of his work down he's ticked off and goes elsewhere for everything? This is my main hangup and always has been about a backhoe, all the local backhoe guys that were in the business and retired have told me not to buy one for just this reason, any ideas or thoughts? I can't do everything all the time, I'm just trying to do what I do now and speed the process up some, not add an entirely new line of work to what I've already got, for me its the busy time of year and I don't want anything more to do when I'm already two months behind now and find my phone ringing off the hook for backhoe work day and night too for waterline leaks and to locate buried electrical lines isn't my idea of a good time, right now they don't call because I've got steel tracks and too big of a machine.............................. or so they think, its a common thought that only a rubber tired backhoe can dig up waterlines and I haven't told anyone anything to the contrary yet. We used to dig septics in and work on them but from what I've seen of the meth problems and what they do to septics around me I'm not wanting anything to do with them so we quit doing it and told people I don't have a backhoe and find someone that does instead and its worked just fine, nobodys upset and keep people happy that way.

 

[last1leftnh]

I agree with NFDDJS, I wouldn't even consider one without it being a 4x4. Your right in your thinking though, I had an excavator years ago and it was a pain to move it short distances so I sold it and bought a Case 580K Construction King. Now that I don't use it much anymore I have it up for sale here in NH. You can check it out on Craigslist/NH if your interested.

Mike

 

[stumpjumper83]

2wd backhoes are like 2wd trucks... Whats the price difference to go up to the newer boom style of a k compared to the older ones?

 

[Randy88]

Stumpjumper, if I'd go to a 4x4 and extendahoe in a k model it would be about twice the price as an E 2wd and standard hoe, roughly.

Mike what are you wanting for it and what shapes it in?

 

[last1leftnh]

I've got it listed on Craigslist,NH for 18,500 I think? Realistically I'd sell it for 16,000 to 17,000. You can see pictures of it on Craigslist. It's in good shape I guess. It's never failed me anyway. It has a Wainroy bucket on the hoe that needs some welding. The standard electrical problems for this model. The hour meter and tach stopped working but everything else works. It's stuck in 4wd but it's at my woodlot so I never tried to free it up. Has a few hydraulic line leaks but nothing severe. It's had maybe 50 hrs of use in the last 6 years so that's why I'm selling it. When it comes to digging it's an absolute BRUTT! I have only used it for digging out a few stumps, opening a stone wall and plowing some snow in the winter months.

Mike

 

[CM1995]

For you backhoe guys that are in the business a lot can you turn backhoe work down from a customer and still keep his other work, say like dirt work, does that fly or once you turn some of his work down he's ticked off and goes elsewhere for everything?

That has been my experience, you turn that one little job down and the next person that takes it ends up doing the customers next clearing or dirt work. I have gotten several jobs and new customers over the years that way...:cool2

Ditto on 4wd and extendahoe. I wouldn't even look at a 2wd, extendahoe is more of a luxury but it sure is a nice luxury.

 

[DGODGR]

IMO the Super E is a better machine than the Super K. Back when the K model came out I used them head to head on the same job many times. Further more, if I could buy an E model, same condition and price, as a D model I would get the E. Really it sounds like you are talking yourself out of the backhoe anyway. If you don't want "backhoe" work than don't get one. It's gotta be rough being scared to get too much work. Couldn't you hire someone to do this other work that you don't want? Or you could have an arrangement with an owner operator that you could refer the work to without worrying about competition. A full service company can be important to some customers and can even lead you to more of your prefered work (like 1995 said). If you don't want the 24 HR service work you can always turn off your phone at night. Most water lines can be shut off until daytime anyway. You really are not saving much time by roading the hoe anyway. BTW the Case hoes do not road very well (super rough ride). I would also consider a Deere 310C (was available about the same time as the K series Case) as they were pretty good hoes. I have no experience with prior model Deeres.

 

[Randy88]

DGODGR, right now I'm considering bringing my son back into the business and if so I'll need to expand somewhere to make room for him and also create extra dollars to cover his salary, up until now I've never had time to tend to that type of work, I've been busy during the season with my other work, I was concerned about offending customers by telling them at this time I've got no time to do your backhoe job, that would never fly around here, but if my son comes back, I've got more help and can then dedicate him to doing this type of work and keep my other more profitable work as well that generates me money, not that a backhoe wouldn't generate dollars just not as many and as dedicated as my bread and butter stuff does. I was thinking about making him a partner in the backhoe so he has more invested than just a job and paycheck and also see if he likes the work, without him I really have no need for it, I'm busy enough the way it is, now for the off season thats a different story, but I can't tell people just wait two months and I'll be there to fix your waterline when my other work slows down, I know that won't fly, from what I know of backhoes and that type of work, you'd better get there shortly, if not today by tomorrow, not like a dozer job where I've got several days or even weeks to get it done or tiling where if I don't make it this fall next spring we'll get it done for sure.

Also what makes the E better than a K in your opinion, the way it works or the maintance and repair? As for roading the machine we usually go a few miles and I was wanting something I didn't have to load all the time, a hoe I could drive about as fast and loading and unloading all the time like I do now with an excavator, which is a real time killer, we dirve the tile stringing tractor from farm to farm and a hoe really wouldn't be much different, I know they ride rough, I've done it several times but it's still faster than the trucking and hauling thing,for most of my trips its only a few miles now for longer distances we load and haul.

CM1995, thanks for the imput and the reply, I've been told that many times but wasn't sure if I was being told it to keep me from buying one or to warn me what would happen if I turned work down by having one and not being able to do that type of work in season when I was busy with other things.

Up to now I was worried I'd get calls and not be able to do the work on time to keep everyone happy, and as for hired help as far as anyone off the street, I'll pass, been there done that and they were more work than the work they did is my experience.

 

[stumpjumper83]

Randy, dont take that as a "you must buy a 4x4" I just like the k and newer boom compared to the older style.

 

[Randy88]

Stumpjumper, can you tell me whats different about the k and newer boom than the older booms, not to sound stupid but from an operational standpoint, there has to be a difference.

 

[DGODGR]

I prefered the E over the K because the E I was using would dig faster, was smoother, and stronger on loader or the hoe. This is not just an estimated seat of the pants guess. I was able to do a head to head comparison. When the K was intorduced I was working on a crew that had (2) hoes. We often would dig to install very large vaults (LA DWP work). Big enough that both hoes could be digging the same vault at the same time (one on each end). This work was in the street so both hoes were truck loading the spoils. I was using the E and my counterpart was using the K. The E would make (2) passes to the Ks one. I know that operator ability figures in here and I will admit that I was the more agressive of the two. The other operator had over twenty years experience, compared to about 6 years for me, so the advantage should not have been huge if any. I also ran the K and my suspisions were confirmed. The backhoe levers would also stick (leaving the valve open) and this obviously created some issues. On paper the K should have been superior but this just was not the case (ha ha). The later models did show improvements but when I was using those I no longer had the E available to compare. I did not perform maintenance when at that company (had an oiler who would come to the job) so I can not provide much insight on that. From what I know they should be similar except that the K series hood will tilt forward while the E sidepanels will have to be unbolted for access. The units in question were 2WD models. The major difference in the K vs the E is the boom. The E model had a square tube as the boom and has (2) boom rams, one on each side of the boom (the same as the first series of Cat backhoes, Cat copied Case, if you are familiar with those). The K model came with a cast piece of ductile iron formed into a "U" shape. The hoses were run up the bottom of the boom, on the inside (well protected I must admit) and the larger single boom ram was also housed inside. This same design is still being used on the newest Case backhoes.

 

[DGODGR]

I forgot to mention....the steal tubes used to push hydraulic oil to the stabilizers (under the floor, inside the frame, on each side of the valve bank) will rub against the frame and wear through. This is very common on the K model. When this happens I recommend that you replace them with traditional rubber hoses. Not anything worthy of dismissing the K model from consideration just a tip if you do buy one.

 

[stumpjumper83]

I had heard that case had some problems with the older boom design with the e series i believe. I always thought that the older design was weaker and the hoe strength pushed case to go to a ductile boom over the older tube type. I have seen a pin jump out of the bottom of the older boom style (b machine) and make a mess of things and when i told an older mechanic about this, he said that it was an area you needed to keep track of.

 

[bowen]

Whatever you get be prepared to spend lots of money on parts. I still say Case is hard to beat, and seems to be the most popular.

 

[Randy88]

How much trouble are the shuttle shift transmissions on the E model and whay type of job is it to rebuild them and are they much different over the K model, also I've found a F model machine to go look at anyone know anything about them, if the machines all run the four cyclinder cummings whats the difference between the 480, 580 and 680 machines other than weight, are the shuttle transmissions and rear ends completely different or do they just hang more cast weight on the machines to get them heavier? One model is a 480F I've found and also several 580E's along with a 680 I think, but that looked like a really lot bigger machine all around. For the repair end of it, are the components somewhat seperate or in order to get to the shuttle shift you have to totally dismantle the entire machine like on some JD dozers or are they more like the case dozers and you can just remove the component that needs replacement or repair, I've never seen a backhoe taken apart before so I don't know and was curious since we do all our own repair and rebuilds. Is there anywhere online to look at a parts book or repair manual on an E model? I've been asking around and nobody close by has one to go look at or even ask about one, some of the mechanics don't even remember them for sure and most weren't even around to work on that vintage of machine, man that makes me feel old somedays.

Bowen, most everything I own lives on parts of some sort, the key it buying something that the parts are the easiest of any brand or model to replace and has parts available somewhere and for some time to come yet. Thanks for the imput guys.