Kobelco 160-vi electrical/ possibly hydraulic

[Connstellation]

Hello, I've got a few topics, 2 machines that are fighting me.

I have a kobelco 160-vi [according to cab decals, but I can't find a serial plate to confirm]. I thought it was a dash 4 but Roman numerals are hard for some reason.

I've got variable slow machine function, sometimes semi quick, usually slow. Also an arm cylinder that will boom out on its occasionally at various speeds/ positions. Im suspecting the two are at least half related because the rod seal is leaking fluid and sucking air.

Unfortunately this machine was abused, neglected, with hack and slash fixes. I have codes for battery relay [it was bypassed], engine speed sensor, mechatro control failure [I can't be sure, but i think since the battery relay], h-4 offset [?] and p1 bypass propo, which from what I understand is the latest and most related code.

Things I've done/ am doing:
Since I'm not sure on my serial number i can't order a seal kit yet for the arm cylinder. Im not sure if it's a 125 or a 130mm bore until i can take it apart.
I've spliced the engine speed sensor [wiring was corroded/ split]. The sensor ohmed within spec, but voltage was 3.5vac. The manual wants at least 4. Im assuming I can adjust sensors depth to get it within spec. I can't however, get to the sensors menu page to see its readout for some reason?
I've spliced the governor's wiring.
I've replaced a1 [operation lever lock] and a2 [power boost] solenoids as one shorted and the other had deteriorated insulation causing it to have half the resistance making it excessively hot.
I've been through almost every spool/relief, but plan to recheck [in case I've missed something] the arm functions, conflux, recirculation, and travel straight after I reseal arm cylinder.
Replaced p1 pressure sensor.
Checked/ ohmed wiring to solenoids [controller to solenoid plug]
Completely rebuilt pump probably 700 hours ago because other had grenaded. [I didn't have any debris when I cleaned most of valve body but possible I missed something as I did this months ago]

Here's my diagnostic information at idle:
Ym22e0008f1 ver 3.99

• Eg set 1050. meas 907
• Accell volt 3.5. Pos 83%. Step 280. Pos 8%
• Step coil a 1.5a. Coil b 1.5a
• F-2 swing brake comp on. Meas on. Release off.
• F-3 1/2 travel comp off. Meas off. Switch off.
• I-2 bat relay comp on. Meas off. Key on.
• Boom raise 0.4v 0p. boom lower 0.4v 0p.
• Arm out 0.4v 0p. Arm in 0.4v 0p.
• Bucket dig 0.4v 0p. Bucket dump 0.4v 0p.
• Swing right 0.4v 0p. Swing left 0.0v 0p [????]
• Travel right 0.4v 0p. Travel left 0.4v 0p.
• Pump p1 0.5v 87p [this fluctuates, with machine off its 57ish always] pump p2 0.5v 14p.
• Propo d-1 p1 bypass comp 200ma 0p meas 13ma 0p [?????].
• Propo d2 p2 bypass comp 200ma 0p meas 205ma 0p.
• D-3 s travel comp 350ma 100p meas 346ma 96p
• D-6 arm recirc comp 706ma 413p meas 482ma 225p
• P1 pump 433ma 164p meas 423ma 155p p shift 0
• P2 pump 433ma 164p meas 426ma 157p p shift 0
• Mechatro sw run, vol 50%, prog sw off

@80% run

• Eg set 2215 meas 1974
• Accell 3.5v, pos 88%, motor step 431, pos 80%
• Arm out 0.6v 14p [manual states 0.4v to 0.5v, .6 volts is out of spec, it over volts when arm cylinder acts up more or vide versa]
• Arm in 0.4v 0p.
• D1 p1 bypass comp 453ma 190p meas 18 ma 0p [????]
• D2p2 bypass comp 453ma 190p. Meas 448ma 1849
• D-6 a recirc comp 706ma 413p meas 488ma 220p [???]
• P1 pump comp 350ma 81p meas 341ma 83p. Power shift 120ma.
• P2 pump comp 350ma 81p meas 340ma 83p. Powershift 120ma

I excluded the values that didn't change at throttle. So my p1 sensor always has a reading, even at off, of 57 regardless of new or old sensor. arm out sensor usually reads 0.4 to .5v but hits 6 occasionally, also when i end up with pressure on both sides of arm, probably because of air. P1 bypass solenoid wiring is good, solenoid coils ohm good but acts as if it isn't plugged in. Arm wants to wander after I activate arm pilot control once, lock out stops it. It'll vary how persistent and how much flow and this seems to affect machine speed.

So i don't know when these sensor readings wacked out. Im assuming some are new and some are old. Anyone have any ideas on what my next item to attack should be besides the cylinder rebuild? Why is my d-1 not giving feedback and why do I report pressure on p1 with machine off or idle? It looks like all arm related cylinders are wonky and im not sure if it's because a1 lever lock went bad and heated the fluid hotter than usual, air, wiring I'm somehow missing, or all of the above.

Ps I forget what the actual number is, but both pumps are capable of outputting 3xxx or 4xxxpsi.

I really appreciate any input.

 

[LACHAU]

I have a kobelco 160-vi [according to cab decals, but I can't find a serial plate to confirm]. I thought it was a dash 4 but Roman numerals are hard for some reason.

You can identify model by its GAUGE CLUSTER as follow images.

MARK IV


MARK VI

 

[LACHAU]

Eg set 1050. meas 907

Eg set 2215 meas 1974

With the monitor display as above.
First, I think you should perform "A" Adjustment let "ENG SET and MEASURE equivalent.

The "MEASURE" value is too low compare to "SET" value ===> Computer will decrease flow of main pump ===> Performance will be very slow!!

 

[Connstellation]

I've got a post change read out like attached. Im using my big brain to assume that makes me a mark 6e? So I should be able to purchase a cylinder kit for a 6e? Which makes me a 90x125mm arm cylinder.

I haven't removed the governor or anything they listed. I also have lots of adjustment on the speed sensor and wondering if I can't get the ac output into spec by adjusting distance for magnetic signal since it generates its own voltage. Kobelco wants to see 4vac output, I've got 3.5vac. 4 / 0.5 =8 . So 3.5v is 7 parts, which is why im getting the feedback amperage you're seeing. Using kobelco's reference amperage 7 x 131ma =918ma. 7 x 276 = 1938ma calculates almost exactly to my feedback values. I'll try an a adjustment after I modify sensor distance trying to get a higher ac voltage to avoid possible new problems just in case the machine tries to run too good like a normal machine and causes bigger issues. This machine has no doubt ran at most of these erroneous values for years. What's throwing me off here is flow speed is inconsistent [it bypassing], which I know is related to the arm cylinder/ air / solenoids. I'm just having trouble narrowing problems until I can eliminate the cylinder being a potential issue.

Any thoughts on why my d-1 and d-6 are acting like they're disconnected and/ or experiencing current loss? D-1 is most definitely connected to the controller with good wiring. Im not sure where to check d-6 as it isn't directly a solenoid? Or am I wrong to think d-1 is directly tied to a5 [psv-d]? The solenoid and wiring ohms Healthy. I haven't checked voltage. But is there anything im missing there aside for controller being bad?

Appreciate the input

 

[LACHAU]

...
I also have lots of adjustment on the speed sensor and wondering if I can't get the ac output into spec by adjusting distance for magnetic signal since it generates its own voltage.

You cannot change the output voltage of the speed sensor !!! check again the wiring from the controller to the speed sensor connector, and also check the connectors. I want to remind you to make "A adjustments" even though the speed sensor voltage is not right.

...Any thoughts on why my d-1 and d-6 are acting like they're disconnected and/ or experiencing current loss? D-1 is most definitely connected to the controller with good wiring. Im not sure where to check d-6 as it isn't directly a solenoid? Or am I wrong to think d-1 is directly tied to a5 [psv-d]? The solenoid and wiring ohms Healthy. I haven't checked voltage. But is there anything im missing there aside for controller being bad?

Appreciate the input

D1 & D6 are...

 

[LACHAU]

SK160-6E has induction type speed sensor (02 wire speed sensor). The controller uses its frequency signal to process, not using voltage signal.

 

[Kobelco ireland]

Hi I suspect your cpu is faulty. I would suggest you forget about resealing the arm cylinder and firstly replace the bypassed battery relay with a genuine one. Then to check problem with p1 bypass solenoid, swap the plugs at solenoid bank with the solenoid next to it, if fault on the dash changes solenoid is faulty if problem does not change check wiring from solenoid to cpu if wiring is OK then cpu is faulty. If you can réad engine rpm on the screen the engine speed sensor is OK. I think the speed sensor, offset and irregular reading on arm recirculation are all down to a faulty cpu. A faulty cpu can cause the hydraulics to do all sorts of weird stuff.

 

[LACHAU]

Hi I suspect your cpu is faulty. I would suggest you forget about resealing the arm cylinder and firstly replace the bypassed battery relay with a genuine one. Then to check problem with p1 bypass solenoid, swap the plugs at solenoid bank with the solenoid next to it, if fault on the dash changes solenoid is faulty if problem does not change check wiring from solenoid to cpu if wiring is OK then cpu is faulty. If you can réad engine rpm on the screen the engine speed sensor is OK. I think the speed sensor, offset and irregular reading on arm recirculation are all down to a faulty cpu. A faulty cpu can cause the hydraulics to do all sorts of weird stuff.

Good day Mr.Kobelco Ireland,
So sorry but I think if CPU of machine is faulty then monitor should display "1 MECHATRO CONTR.FAIL".
@Connstellation: Have you checked the "TROUBLE HISTORY" of machine yet?
Regarding Engine Speed sensor, I haven't known what shop manual you reference, but I have seen the its checking value is different as you can see below images.

 

[Kobelco ireland]

Good day Mr.Kobelco Ireland,
So sorry but I think if CPU of machine is faulty then monitor should display "1 MECHATRO CONTR.FAIL".
@Connstellation: Have you checked the "TROUBLE HISTORY" of machine yet?
Regarding Engine Speed sensor, I haven't known what shop manual you reference, but I have seen the its checking value is different as you can see below images.

View attachment 218625


View attachment 218624

View attachment 218623

View attachment 218622

Please ré Read first message mechatro control failure is one of the faults on screen. Also I have come across plenty of faulty cpu that did not display a fault on the dash

 

[LACHAU]

Please ré Read first message mechatro control failure is one of the faults on screen. Also I have come across plenty of faulty cpu that did not display a fault on the dash

Oh!! It's my fault! I didn't read first post carefully!!!

 

[Kobelco ireland]

I had to read it myself a few times there is a lot of information to take in. It seems like the machine has suffered a lot of abuse and half ass repairs before this lucky fellow got his hands on it

 

[Connstellation]

Yes there's a lot to take in and a lot to be uncertain about.

If it matters, the previous care takers had the relay taken out and replaced with a shutoff switch. mechatron cont failure only displays with engine not running. With engine running I get the other errors I listed but NOT mechatro failure or anything related. This is why im wondering if cont failure is a result of relay bypass. We'll find out soon.

When I check error history it only has 0-4 hours. Weak batteries right now. But strongly assuming everything but solenoid related codes are years old.

I looked at the solenoids and noticed 2 speed [had a 33ohm] and d-6 [16 ohm] were swapped. 2 speed had a 16 ohm solenoid and d-6 had a 33, affecting current feedback. So I also swapped d-1 in the process because I know the 2speed outputs. So d1 bypass is fixed. D6 now has a bad solenoid I'm assuming, weird resistance doesn't factor here for good or bad and 2 speed is same. So I'll pick up a new solenoid for d-6 arm recirc and hope that fixes my automatically moving arm issues if not a cylinder.

I modified engine speed sensor. I got it up to 6.5vac but did not see a feedback change. Because it's a magnetic based signal, lowering gap would give a stronger attraction was my basis thinking ac current would scale the feedback. Regardless, I'm going to obtain a new engine speed sensor since the wiring on the current one is pretty at the sensor base and then some.

So I think I've solved d1. I think d6 will be fine after a new solenoid since it has absolutely no feedback with d-1's solenoid. The only thing I'm uncertain of is the engine sensor. I'll do an a adjustment if a new speed sensor doesn't pan out. Im still assuming controller is fine. Although wiring has gotten wet and from what i understand the previous 5 year operator hid and spilled alcohol on the casing multiple times, I'm not seeing any reason to jump on it yet until I'm out of other options.

Mechatro controller 16-1 goes to the cluster. Im not experiencing any problems there yet. Maybe next week.

In short, I have a relay, engine speed sensor, solenoid, and cylinder kit on way. Only thing I can think of next is going through spools hunting debris and a controller but I think I'd be better off beating my head with a stick

Thanks for the input.

Ps. Any ideas of where I can find kobelco style flat pins for electrical connector repairs?

 

[Kobelco ireland]

Hi this new information is better. If cpu failure only appears with key on and engine not running this fault is related to the bypassed battery relay. Solenoid d-6 and the two speed solenoid are not interchangeable. All eight solenoids look the same but there are 4 proportional solenoid valves and four on /off solenoid valve. If these solenoid become mixed up the machine will be a big mess. Look at the picture of the solenoid block that lachau posted for reference. Check the part numbers on your solenoids. Psv-a, b, C, D should all have part number kdrde5k-31/30c50. Sv 2,3,4 should have part number kwe5k-31/g24db50. Numbers will be on silver tag on the solenoid valves. Please check all valves are correctly located in block

 

[Connstellation]

Yes the solenoids are sorted out and I have a new solenoid for arm recirculation as the one that I've corrected for from d-1 ohms good but does not output.

I will be putting on a new solenoid, speed sensor, and relay hopefully today to find everything within spec, if not, then hopefully after an a adjustment.

Question on wiring the relay. Now im no dummy, says every dummy, but I don't have much ignition electrical knowledge. I know it's pretty simple but it doesn't roll off my tongue.
Cut me some slack as I don't remember what I have to work with, aside for I know I have two harnesses terminations, a larger 2 wire and smaller 3 wire, which seem to match the one diagram.

1.) The solenoid I've got has a jumper [black wire] from negative to terminal a, do I need that? What is the point?
2.) So im seeing 3 smaller wires in harness and 2 larger wires in harness. 2 connections to terminal b [1 starter 1 harness]. 2 connections to terminal a 1 harness 1 to battery, and im assuming I connect to battery positive on terminal a? Then the 3 smaller wires go to the terminals and grounds case. Am I right, wrong, or missing something?

Appreciate the help.

 

[Kobelco ireland]

Is that an aftermarket battery relay. It's unlikely its the correct one if it didn't come with the kobelco harness attached to it. I know it looks identical to old one but kobelco battery reply is different to most other machines.

 

[Mark250]

Hi I don't know anything about Kobelco but from what you have posted DO NOT WIRE UP AS PER YOUR SKETCH
The original relay as posted has two internal coils. One acting as a pull in coil to engage the relay with a heavy current then this is switched out and a hold in coil is used to maintain the contacts closed with little current used.
the terminals L & B2 are both positive inputs to the relay coils and the ground terminal is the coil returns.
not knowing the full circuit details I would suspect that L is from a key switch and B2 is from alternator to keep relay alive until engine shuts down (or the other way round )
The relay you have is a standard relay with only one coil and the two lower connections will be pos and neg
A circuit diaghram would be a great help as I may be completely wrong
Mark

 

[Connstellation]

That makes sense. Im Seeing that on the circuit now. Thanks.

 

[Connstellation]

I recieved a dud engine sensor so that's on hold. I'll do an a adjustment sometime in near future.

All of the solenoids are reading and outputting within roughly 1% of spec.

So I've had some trouble with language settings and not really sure how to get measurements back to imperial yet, good ol psi. So im having trouble remembering and correlating info off of the top of my head as I did what and what happened as result . So excuse my lack of detailed information until i can figure out what's next to try again.

So what I have now, or rather have had, but more predictable now.
1. The arm cylinder has full range of motion but from all the way in until 90 degrees is slow, hesitant, and interrupted. After 90 degrees it stops. Then I have what seems like full speed motion with full power but kinda sloppy with a quick fall when I go to boom back down. After im about 110 degrees, the arm usually wants to travel outwards on its own, and reflects a small pressure reading of 5mpa, in the past before solenoids I've seen 4ksi. I suspect some of that is at least partially air due to rod seal. I do think the arm out pressure sensor is on it's way out due to previous heat issues and have a new part coming.
2. Bucket is slow both directions. Hesitant to recieve power, sometimes has no power. sometimes it's quicker but I haven't found a reason why yet. I haven't noticed air in this cylinder but this rod seal leaks.
3. When boom is let down, like the arm, it wants to fall like there was air that compressed until it catches itself, not much, but it's there. I have not noticed air in this cylinder and do not have fluid leakage. The boom moves slow and sometimes will lift machine fully, other times it'll get about a foot and labor

• Arm in 3.3v 30.4M while arm out is 1v 5.8M[while arm out is acting up and im arming down] I haven't seen arm outs full value.
• D-6 I've seen as much as 41M while fighting arm out creep.
• Pump 2 [pump with arm out and swing] I've seen normal values of 33Mish at some point, don't recall voltage. However I've seen spikes of 1.1v 111.6M, 0.9v 87m, 0.6v 18.8M. I can't recall what I was doing at time but I do know arm was acting up, I was not tramming nor swinging while those high readings happened.
• Pump 1 I've seen as high as 0.8v 58M. I believe I was attempting to lift machine.
• I don't know swing readings, but I believe I have full power/speed every time I've attempted. Keep in mind I've only operated these machines when they've had problems so I don't have much baseline. But it's quick and fluid.
• I'd consider tram slow, half or 3/4 speed semi labored. Max reading I've seen was either 31 or 33M.

So I'm assuming im dealing with hydraulic circuit issues now. Being pump 2 is seeing 14ksi, not to be captain obvious but I'd say im looking at main reliefs and possibly opening arm circuit for contamination. I'll be looking at book and checking out the troubleshoot scenarios in mean time.

Id appreciate any input as I was hoping the solenoid swap and replacement would be the golden fix.

 

[Connstellation]

Still peckering around just been busy.

I've picked up guages/fittings but haven't had a chance to hook up yet. Hoping to rebuild the arm cylinder first. Planning to take apart/ adjust reliefs if needed after getting analog readings. I also have some wiring to go through again, so there that.

I've gone through the spools again, everything is snug and smooth except for the arms pool's spring. The inside spring has compressed about a quarter of an inch, which I knew about since first look through but all springs are within spec so for good measure since I was in again I added and secured a washer to stop any possible chatter/ unwanted movement of inside spring, at least temporarily since it isn't fatigued.

So the real reason im posting, I was in the menu twice now but can't remember how I got there again, and cant find the resources I had before to tell me how.

I accidentally changed language to Japanese when trying to get into diagnostics. I was able to change it back to English. What are the steps to get back into language selection? And how can I change units displayed in diagnostics?

As always I appreciate the help.

 

[Connstellation]

Haven't messed with the machine much but it's in my nightmares. Excuse my word spaghetti. If nothing else it's a good place to record my horrors for future record.

I kept original speed sensor in machine as the replacements I've recieved are only 1.6kOhm. I haven't found one specced for 2.3. Mine is 2.17 kohm so it's in spec, but the pigtail is rotted . So I'll patch that in mean time somehow.

I haven't done an a adjustment yet, I looked at the stepper area again and noticed the ball connector broke and someone wrapped with wire which makes me think that was pretty recent to when the machine started acting up, but not the cause. In the next few days I have new linkage parts coming and will be getting to that.

I have a couple wire insulation issues to fix, most at the connector. I can't find pins similar to what kobelco uses to completely refit so I have to stay temporary.

Almost all readings from display look good now, except for RPM and p2 pressure. I always get a reading of 0 rpm. And I can only view rpm at start up. Is there a way to get into it with machine running because what the book says doesn't work? And where should i start trouble shooting? I suppose at the a adjustment when parts come in.

P2's pressure regulator on the pump gives me a consistent reading. It USED to be 0 to 54ish psi. After putting in a replacement arm spool spring [I'm assuming] I've been getting 0-14psi back and forth. That's with machine off, machine on but lever locked, OR machine on and lever unlocked when arm cylinder doesn't want to wander, in which case I see the same pressure, 0-14psi showing on the arm out pressure sensor.

I did replace the arm out pressure sensor as voltage was out of spec, but I did not notice a difference and haven't had a chance to run machine without arm cylinder fighting me yet.

How should I interpret the pressure from p2 to arm out? Is my spring maybe not strong enough? I picked up a 154 lb/inch spring. When I measured stock they were 100 lb/inch. I believe. Could that be leakage from air via the arm cylinder? I did notice the sensor is caved in and semi crushed so I do have a new one coming in case it's a false reading somehow im not seeing. But I do not believe the sensor is bad due to how similar both readings are on dual pump functions

When arm cylinder wants to behave [usually on 70 degree days?], my latest progress is I have full pressure on arm out/in on both pumps. Speed of arm in is slow at about 90 degrees, I'm assuming air equalizing in cylinder right now. But everything else, bucket, boom, track and swing are reduced flow and all max at 425 psi, .The pumps will show varying pressures in relation to what is being done, 425 to 2000ish or something, I can't remember exactly. What might I be missing here aside for an a adjustment/ engine speed or a cylinder rebuild? Im just getting nervous because my list of stuff to fix is starting to run out and. I've seen very little improvement yet.

Appreciate the input