knocking sound when shutting tractor off

[funkinalive]

Hi everybody, i have a CLAAS ARES 557 tractor with 1460hrs. I know most of you are not familiar with this machine but it has a JD motor and an MF transmission (24 speed Hexashift). the problem i am having is that the tractor operates with absolutely no issues, but lately i have noticed a nast knock when the motor is shut down (definately not like this before). specifically as you turn off the motor it winds down and right as its about to stop there are two to three loud knocks which i believe is coming from between the engine and transmission. i have no idea what this could be, i checked the tensioner and engine mounts, and they seem fine, its dificult to localize the noise but i think its coming from the bellhousing between the transmission and motor. loose flywheel maybe? broken clutch plate or disc? Im wondering if anybody has encountered such a problem before? thanks for any input

Sincerely
Mike

 

[Dualie]

I would say loose or cracked flywheel.

 

[cutting edge]

damaged flex coupler. Fix it before it wrecks something else!

 

[funkinalive]

damaged flex coupler. Fix it before it wrecks something else!

i am also leaning towards this! dont know exactly what it looks like for tractor applications but i would have liked to replace it myself. but all these damn "new" tractors require all kinds of "special" tools and calibration to perform. sigh! calling my dealer to look at it tommarow

 

[JDOFMEMI]

It sounds like a coupler, or dampener to me. They are rubber mounted over metal to reduce shock loading, and when the rubber wears out, you get metal on metal banging. You don't hear it under normal operation, as the load on the coupler is constant, but at shutdown, it "rattles" back and forth as the engine jerks to a halt, causing the banging noise.

 

[funkinalive]

It sounds like a coupler, or dampener to me. They are rubber mounted over metal to reduce shock loading, and when the rubber wears out, you get metal on metal banging. You don't hear it under normal operation, as the load on the coupler is constant, but at shutdown, it "rattles" back and forth as the engine jerks to a halt, causing the banging noise.

exactly my thoughts. The PROBLEM however is that you have to split the tractor in order to replace the coupler. in order to split the tractor they tell me that you need a lot of special tools. finally the coupler cannot be repaired, it must be replaced for 480eur. so they quoted me 2 men at 22eur/hour (per man) + travel + calibration + oil = 1784euro. thats of course assuming that everything else is OK. but the dealer is now telling me that it would be a good idea to replace some sort of pump while their in there so i dont know whether he's now just trying to milk me for money. i can understand if the tractor had higher hours or was worked hard, but the tractor has seen very little heavy work at 1400hrs, is garaged and meticulously maintained. i hope this is a faulty part since we dont plan on paying up to 2000eur per year to keep the damn thing running. missing our old Zetors already

 

[Richardjw~]

the flex-plate is termed as a wearing part

 

[funkinalive]

the flex-plate is termed as a wearing part

1400hrs for any "wearing" part in a tractor is unacceptable. especially when it requires that the tractor be split to replace. im still leaning toward a faulty part.

 

[oceanobob]

I've seen tractors split apart on a flat smooth surface by sliding the joint flange over a piece of smooth greased plate that is carefully cribbed and secured....one axle held still, other axle carefully rolled along .... a couple pieces of all thread or rod to guide it back together....
maybe that is the old way?

 

[funkinalive]

I've seen tractors split apart on a flat smooth surface by sliding the joint flange over a piece of smooth greased plate that is carefully cribbed and secured....one axle held still, other axle carefully rolled along .... a couple pieces of all thread or rod to guide it back together....
maybe that is the old way?

i really couldnt tell you, we have a 5ton overhead crane on the farm and we disassemble the cab, block up the tractor and get as much access to the transmission as possible. would have done the same with this tractor to at least get them access to the transmission but they will not guarantee the repair if we do this. anyway, the mechanics coming tomorrow so well see what he says.

 

[AndyGrevis]

so, have you teared it down? but anyways, i agree at 1400 hours it should not be an issue, if regular maintenace is performed it should be at least ten times as much for any major surgery.

 

[Richardjw~]

1400hrs for any "wearing" part in a tractor is unacceptable. especially when it requires that the tractor be split to replace. im still leaning toward a faulty part.

yes, agreed....thats a bit early in the lifetime of the tractor.

I'm not at all familiar with that brand but can't see what the problem with splitting would be, back of the engine should be a dry compartment. Often they put a sensor on the damper to calculate the difference on engine load for the power boosts and auto-shift under load. if the springs/hub has broken up I would expect it to be in permanent boost or down-shift.

What does this pump do that they say needs changing?

What was the diagnosis on the plate?

 

[funkinalive]

sorry for not getting back earlier, i have not been on the farm since i work in another region. My father called me yesterday and we talked about it and i guess its not so uncommon since the mechanics ordered the part from germany ahead of time. it took them 6 hrs total to split the tractor, replace the part, and put it all back together again (thats really good IMO). and all seems to be working well. they blamed the problem on a lack of transmission calibration, reasoning that with inproper calibration the engagment of some powershift ranges can be too agressive and cause a lot of load on this coupler (especially under a load). they recommend calibrating every 500hrs. im curiose how this calibration physically works within the transmission? anyone know how this works?

 

[JDOFMEMI]

So did it end up under warranty?

 

[funkinalive]

So did it end up under warranty?

i wish! the tractor is an 07 model which had a three year (1000hr) warranty so it is not covered by the manufacturer. even if i point out that it is a defective part they will argue that i was supposed to calibrate the transmission (something we didnt know had to be done after the tractor was handed over to us). last time i checked the manual it wasnt written under regular maintenance though. the bill will come in the mail so it will be interesting what the damage is going to be. as soon as i get back on the farm i will try and get a picture of the worn part to post up here.

 

[Richardjw~]

sorry for not getting back earlier, i have not been on the farm since i work in another region. My father called me yesterday and we talked about it and i guess its not so uncommon since the mechanics ordered the part from germany ahead of time. it took them 6 hrs total to split the tractor, replace the part, and put it all back together again (thats really good IMO). and all seems to be working well. they blamed the problem on a lack of transmission calibration, reasoning that with inproper calibration the engagment of some powershift ranges can be too agressive and cause a lot of load on this coupler (especially under a load). they recommend calibrating every 500hrs. im curiose how this calibration physically works within the transmission? anyone know how this works?

Calibration will maintain the shift quality making it smoother and without delays, as time goes on the oil gets thinner, wear occurs in the packs, seals leak a bit and after time it all results in a deteriotation of gear shifts.....what he is on about is a sharp pack lock-up being cushioned by the damper springs - which essenially is what they're there to do anyway.

During a normal pack shift the calibration values will first ramp up to give a 80% pack fill startingthe pack turning then 10% will be shift modulation where the speed sensors monitor input and output speeds and the last 10% is pack lock-up.....if any of these go outside the parameters then you can get slippage, heat build-up and all together after time burnt packs.

In this day and age I am surprised they don't have automated shift quality improvement once it reached a set trans temp. within the software as they used to do on the older Case MX Magnums (upto 4.5 software).......interesting you note its not stated in the OPS manual - personally i think the least it should say is "contact your dealer"

 

[Richardjw~]

....

 

[funkinalive]

Calibration will maintain the shift quality making it smoother and without delays, as time goes on the oil gets thinner, wear occurs in the packs, seals leak a bit and after time it all results in a deteriotation of gear shifts.....what he is on about is a sharp pack lock-up being cushioned by the damper springs - which essenially is what they're there to do anyway.

During a normal pack shift the calibration values will first ramp up to give a 80% pack fill startingthe pack turning then 10% will be shift modulation where the speed sensors monitor input and output speeds and the last 10% is pack lock-up.....if any of these go outside the parameters then you can get slippage, heat build-up and all together after time burnt packs.

In this day and age I am surprised they don't have automated shift quality improvement once it reached a set trans temp. within the software as they used to do on the older Case MX Magnums (upto 4.5 software).......interesting you note its not stated in the OPS manual - personally i think the least it should say is "contact your dealer"

Thanks Richard for the response, i must admit though that i expected the calibration to be as you state above, but i was more interested in what physical mechanism or variables are being altered by the calibration (hydraulic flow rate/pressure into the packs?). what i gather from your post is that the calibration is strictly for engament between the powershift ranges, and its interesting to note what you said about the steps of engagment. sometimes when our tractor is under a load it will sometimes seem to drop off pace as i switch into the next powershift level (im assuming that this is similar to your 80% pack engagment analogy as you say above) it then picks up (final 20% for full engagment). im verry intrigued by the whole unit, its quite a mechatronic marvel. maybe it would be appropriate to ask you what we can do about the electronic "manual" clutch, ours seems to have NO modulation which makes easing up to implements very difficult, would this also be a calibration issue?

 

[Richardjw~]

Thanks Richard for the response, i must admit though that i expected the calibration to be as you state above, but i was more interested in what physical mechanism or variables are being altered by the calibration (hydraulic flow rate/pressure into the packs?). what i gather from your post is that the calibration is strictly for engament between the powershift ranges, and its interesting to note what you said about the steps of engagment. sometimes when our tractor is under a load it will sometimes seem to drop off pace as i switch into the next powershift level (im assuming that this is similar to your 80% pack engagment analogy as you say above) it then picks up (final 20% for full engagment). im verry intrigued by the whole unit, its quite a mechatronic marvel. maybe it would be appropriate to ask you what we can do about the electronic "manual" clutch, ours seems to have NO modulation which makes easing up to implements very difficult, would this also be a calibration issue?

Honestly I've never worked on a Claas, but I would have thought there's guys out there on other Ag. Forums in Europe who should be able to advise

Whether the calibration figures used are for each of the 6 individual clutch packs or the packs as a group I can't say. Essentially its brain regulates the oil flow/pressure (around 300psi) through the solenoids to the packs - does that sound right - oil through a solenoid?...well, through the valve connected to the solenoid....its trying to ease its "electronic foot off the clutch"......really don't know if your clutch is through a cable or potentiometer(s)......sorry, demonstrating my lack of product knowledge here.

Its not unheard of for these solenoid valves to also get sticky or even the speed sensors, or oil temp senders (brain thinks the oil is still cold/thick) to fail and the calibration numbers go out of range trying to shift it, normally resulting in an error code to be flashed up on the display and the tractor would probably drop out of gear as a fail-safe.

Also there's a sensor in the damper area and its function is to measure deflection, comparing it to the flywheel input - in other words the more load on the driveline the more it compresses the damper springs, once it goes over a prescribed % it will up the fuel.....giving the power boost - of which i understand Claas is the best in the market for.

 

[funkinalive]

Thanks rich, i think i have a grasp on how it works now. the foot clutch on the class is modulated by a potentiometer (just doesnt seem to work: more like an on/off switch). its a good, comfortable tractor and productive when matched with appropriate implements, but its as you said in previouse posts: anything you want to fix yourself, no matter how trivial its a "call your dealer" bit, even for changing the oils the manual simply states to contact your local claas dealer. oh well, claas tractors are more well known in europe i know but the components are from other tractors (DPS motor, Massey dyna 6 transmission, carraro front transaxle, renault cab, etc...). i tried signing up to the british farming forums, but it requires a non-ineternet hosted email adress to make an account (which i dont have). should be back at the farm in two weeks time so id like to see how it operates