John Deere 455G 1987 1185 hr. Hammering Sound in hydraulics

[jwalk2c]

Hello,
I noticed this sound while clearing some light brush and using 4in1 bucket to move some dead trees. Is worse through mid travel range. The sound happens when lifting or lowering boom cylinders. It actually sounds like its coming from the bucket tilt cylinders but since the sound happens when lifting boom, then that must not be the case.
I changed Hydraulic Filter last year and actually just started using this machine for some light clearing of brush. I have never really used it for any heavy work.
I was planning on changing hydraulic fluid this season and have bought Hy-Gard and another JD filter for this purpose.
Hydraulic oil in sight glass appears normal to me, but I am no mechanic..
I goggled this problem and got several generic answers , many serious issues , and some seem to point to cavitation or air in system.
Been reading these boards for several years and can't recall anyone with an issue such as this.
Any suggestions what to do would be appreciated.
Thank you
John

 

[Welder Dave]

Are all the linkages and cylinders greased properly and are they all taking grease? Just wondering if a pin is binding in a bushing. Know a guy that bought a new skid steer and never greased it. Boom cylinder pin actually seized with under 500 hours. If you just tilt the bucket or open the 4 in 1 does it do it? If it does it in all functions after changing the filter start there. Maybe the gasket isn't seated right. There was a recent problem like this on a fuel filter. Gasket had to go in housing and not sit on top of filter when installing. Could also check suction line to pump for leaks, collapsing or loose connections and lift cylinder hoses. Another thought, does it do it no matter how fast you are lifting or lowering the boom? On my skid steer I had to add an optional anti-chatter damper on the boom lift spool because at a certain speed the boom would be really jerky when lifting. This helped but still does it the odd time. Maybe a seal or something in the control valve is bad.

 

[jwalk2c]

Thanks Welder Dave for your reply.
Ironically I had greased all the fittings that day. I am an over greaser with an air operated grease gun . Went through 1 and 1/2 tubes of JD TY6333 moly grease.
Most of it of course I had to use a roll of paper towels to wipe off excess. All the fittings do take grease.
I have kept his machine greased and all the bushings seem to be in very good condition, (as far as I can tell, they do not have excessive play).
I think the hammering only occurs in boom cylinder operation. This evening I will pinpoint that.
I looked at the large hyd suction line coming off the tank. The manual list to clean strainer when changing fluid. I wanted to get a look at what is involved with removing the strainer.
Its behind the large rectangular mounting plate, not round like manual shows. My serial number is 822167 if memory serves and the gasket it over $100.
The filter seems fine, in cold weather the hyd light will come on briefly during first 10 min or so of operation, but I read others have same issue.
I am surprised that the light is not on, I do a bulb check before each engine start, and I will double check but pretty sure that the hyd light is working.
One reason I am an over-greaser is my first loader was a CAT 935 that must have never been greased any without exacterating the boom to bucket had no bushings left, you could see daylight through the over 1/4 gap .
Thank you

 

[Welder Dave]

That's a lot of grease. Only the lift cylinders, might point to an issue with the control valve.

 

[jwalk2c]

Here is a link to a short video I made of the sound on down travel of boom.
Its actually louder in real time.
I did manage to determine that the sound occurs only on boom up or down.
Bucket tilt and 4in1 hydraulics are quite.
Please copy and paste this link in your browser.
Thank you

 

[Welder Dave]

It happens with the engine off so not a pump problem. Hyd. jacks can sometimes make weird noises when lowering things slowly. It sounds like it could be stiction in the cylinder seals causing creaking or maybe something in one of the pivots. My bucket will make some noise when I need to grease the bucket pins. I'd check the lift cylinder pins at the base and the boom pivot pins to make sure they getting grease first. Who knows how well it was greased before you owned it. With the bucket on the ground and the hyd's relaxed see if you can turn the pins. Don't take them out just take out the retaining bolt and see if they will turn. Maybe turn them 180 deg's. if possible and see if it helps. If they seem OK put a straight edge on the lift cylinders barrels to make sure they don't have a slight bend and also lift the boom up and check the cylinder rods. See the thread below. It should shed some light on your problem.

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/cant-get-loader-to-stop-squeaking.61381/

 

[jwalk2c]

Thank you again Welder Dave.
I cut 4in off the end of a 36" metal ruler and used that to see how straight the boom cylinder rods are at maximum extension. Side to side they seem perfect.
The bottoms of both seem to have aprox.1/64 of a bow in the center and I would think that is from the weight of the 4n1 bucket.
The cylinders are perfectly straight as far as I can tell by laying a 24 inch straight edge on them.
I greased all fittings again and I did this at different boom positions by chance this would help.
Since I had fluid on hand I added 5 qts of Hy-Gard to the hyd tank.
My reasoning was when boom was full up the sight glass showed 1\4 and I thought perhaps it was starving for fluid.
I should not have added fluid, when boom is down the sight glass is completely covered in fluid, but plenty of room left in the tank for expansion.
After all this I operated the loader for about 30 min. hoping the grease would somehow get distributed to the squeaky wheel so to speak.
Picked up some med size logs and buckets of old dirt.
It seems to have plenty of lifting power but the sound is still the same.
I took some more videos with engine running and will post later this weekend.
Thanks for your help.

 

[SVTSHELBYGT500]

You may try having lift cylinder,s repacked ! Old packing can get tight over time with age and heat ! Have a jd 450c get so tight you had to power the arms down when hyd. Oil was at operating temp !

 

[Welder Dave]

It's already been established it's not a pump or low oil condition. The cylinders shouldn't deflect because of the 4 in 1 bucket. It doesn't do it constantly, only in certain places. Did you try to turn the pins? I think it could be the seals but rule out any of the pivot points first. Just for an experiment take the pins out of the rod end of the cylinder(s) and turn the rod ends 180 deg's. (if there is clearance when turned). Then put the pins back in and see if the noise changes or is gone. That might tell you if the 1/64" deflection is contributing to the noise. Possibly if a cylinder rod(s) has a slight deflection it makes a noise at the gland nut seal at the deflection. Do you have someone who could listen carefully while you lowered the boom (engine off) to pinpoint exactly where the noise is coming from?

 

[jwalk2c]

Thank you both for the help.
No I have not tried to turn the pins.

Welder Dave that is a good idea to turn the rod end of the cylinders. Although after you mentioned the word 'stiction", I had to look that one up , and then SVTShelbyGT500 also mentioned seals , I was leaning towards the seals being the problem , 1987 and I am guessing never changed. One cylinder is seeping just a tiny bit.

But; the cylinders should not deflect, hmm? And your correct, it does not make the sound at certain places.

I am going to reach out to some local people in grading work and see who they rely on to do work on site. I have a retaliative that owns an well drilling shop that specializes in hydraulic repair. He rebuilt my Didier log splitter cylinder a few years back.

Getting back to taking the rod ends out, I have not done any heavy work like that , but I assume I would build up with timbers something to lower the bucket on and take the pressure off the cylinder?
I will have to get some help. The most heavy work I have done is replace the track adjuster seal on the Cat 935 I had, and splitting that track was light weight work compared to the weight of this boom and bucket.

 

[Welder Dave]

Yeah you'd have to block it up. Have you had someone listen to see exactly where the noise is coming from?

 

[jwalk2c]

No I have not had a chance to contact anyone.
Day job is very busy right now.
This loader is just for my personal use. I work days and only have evenings to play with this.
Its my hobby. Gotta get it fixed, really enjoy working on it, operating it and my little tractor.
Getting old and don't have the strength of my youth though.

I realize these videos are getting ridiculous and a I am wasting your guys time, but what the heck I already uploaded them. Its more of the same, some with engine running.
You can see in one pic my only set up for getting under the loader. It works pretty good, oak 9x9 timbers, and some ramps I whittled w/chainsaw.
Thank you again.

 

[jwalk2c]

You may try having lift cylinder,s repacked ! Old packing can get tight over time with age and heat ! Have a jd 450c get so tight you had to power the arms down when hyd. Oil was at operating temp !

Hi Shelby, I do not understand what you "Oil was at operating temp" is that just saying that everything else was normal? And also, did it damage your cylinder rods? Thanks, John

 

[Welder Dave]

Hyd. oil warms up when in use. Not uncommon to be 180-200F. Sometimes a temperature gun can be used to find a problem area because the oil will be hotter in a specific location. Oil restriction causes heat.

 

[jwalk2c]

I do have a temp gun, that is one thing I was going to do, go over all the joints. I felt them with my hand, all seemed room temp after 30 min of use.
One thing came to mind.
I can lower the safety arm and take the weight off the cylinder rods, or at least I think that will take the weight off. It transfers the weight to it to the Gland nut. If so I can confirm if rods are deflecting.
Did not get to work on it today.

 

[Welder Dave]

You could definitely check the one without the support and then move the support to the other side to check the other rod. I don't think the pins would change temp. enough to notice. Cylinder pins may get a little warm from the heat transfer of the cylinder. One cylinder could be warmer than the other though if there was a problem with the seals in it. I think having someone listen while you lowered it with the engine off could pinpoint the noise. You could even mark on the rod where the noise occurred with a felt pen or something similar and then check that part of the rod. It could be the seals in the gland nut and perhaps a little rust like was mentioned in the other thread.

 

[jwalk2c]

It was incredibly quiet out yesterday evening and I had an opportunity to really listen intently, with engine off during several slow down boom cycles. Finally, I concluded the sound was coming from the left side and seemed to be from the lower loader frame area.

So, I did as Welder Dave suggested and with bucket on the ground, I removed the boom cylinder pin retaining bolt. It was extremely easy to rotate the pin and pull it out a ¼ inch or so.

I thought that this was not the problem pin since it turned so freely, so I removed the boom pin retainer bolt, the pin was tight but with a wood block and small hammer I could rotate it. Same thing for all the other pins on that side. They were all tight but rotated with a wood block and small hammer.

Cranked it up and lifted boom, right away I thought it sounded different, but the real test was with engine off, and slowly lowering boom.

No noise! Only a slight low growl about ½ way down.

I could not leave well enough alone, so I removed boom cylinder pin retainer bolt again, pumped 2 or 3 shots of grease as I made full rotations of pin.

This time with engine off, some of the clicking noise came back.

That is odd, but now I am 99% sure that is the area where the sound is coming from.

I could try to pull pin out but would need to block up bucket. With bucket on ground, there is little access to boom cylinder.

I am going to look at the parts catalog. Its strange that the pin is that sensitive to turning it and or pulling it out so slightly. For example, each time I seemed to move the pin, add grease, and re-tighten, the noise would change, first the noise almost disappeared, then reappeared.

And this whole problem seemed to start on the day that I over greased with a pneumatic grease gun.

 

[Welder Dave]

If it seems to be improving, block the bucket, remove the pin(s) and smear grease around the bore before putting the pin back in. Grease will push out where there's the least resistance and may not get all around the pin. Pins may have tell tale sign too. A couple fittings on my skid steer are like that. Barely pump any grease and it's coming out the end already. That's why the pins with seals are a good idea. They keep grease in and dirt out at the same time. If that doesn't help may need to investigate the cylinder seals more.

 

[DMiller]

To myself sounds a Dry Pin or Bushing. can be a Thrust Washer aside the lift arm pivot as well or on a Cylinder pivot point. Have someone Else operate the boom down engine off, using a Screwdriver, tip to hard part, handle to the little nub on front of your ear listen at Each Pin Boss or directly on the pins, you WILL know when find it.

 

[jwalk2c]

To myself sounds a Dry Pin or Bushing. can be a Thrust Washer aside the lift arm pivot as well or on a Cylinder pivot point. Have someone Else operate the boom down engine off, using a Screwdriver, tip to hard part, handle to the little nub on front of your ear listen at Each Pin Boss or directly on the pins, you WILL know when find it.

Thank you DMiller for that tip with screwdriver and your respective advice as well. I recall having 2 new stethoscopes. I have never used a stethoscope but I think I will experiment. Welder Dave I never thought about the path of least resistance, that makes perfect sense. Yeah I gotta take a look in the parts catalog and see what all is there. I also have the 2 Technical Manuals for this series machine. Those books are thick and require some quite time to study .