JD 444c No Fuel at Injectors

[cjohnsen]

I am in the process of trying to resurrect a 86' 444c thats been sitting for 10 years. Ive already worked though a few other issues and have drained fluids etc. Currently i dont have any fuel getting to the injectors. Ive gone though 7-8 cycles of crank 20 seconds wait 2 minutes.

Ive got fuel going into the injection pump if i crack the line. However ive got the injector lines cracked and not even a dribble of fuel. I took off the return line from the injection pump (the one with the arrow pointing to it) and there was no fuel whatsoever coming out of it. After cranking if i open the screw thats circled (im guessing it bleeds air from the pump) there pressure and fresh diesel behind it and if i take the screw out fiel squirts out for a second until the pressure is releived.

Ive read the following can be issues for no fuel at injectors:

1. Solenoid not working

I can hear the solenoid click when it is turned to start. The resting voltage at the batteries and starter is 12.6 volts. The solenoid sees 11.4 in key on position and while cranking the voltage drops to 9.2. Some people have said wires that are almost broken can cause the solenoid to not stay open when cranking. Is 9.2 volts enough to keep the solenoid from shutting off the fuel supply?

2. Broken injection pump shaft

Im really hoping this isnt it. Since when i open the screw that is circled and there is pressure im hoping the shaft is intact. Also before i did anything i turned the engine over by hand and it turned freely. If the shaft broke i feel like i would have heard it and felt resistance when i first turned it over

3. Stuck metering valve

Ive never been inside an injection pump so if anyones got advice im all ears

The machine ran when it was parked there. Just forgot about for 10 years.

 

[cjohnsen]

Heres the picture without the link

 

[wrwtexan]

Take the top off and see if the metering valve is turning. Nothing will come out of place, just be easy with those torx head screws as they can freeze up in that long run from the head down through the cover into the body. The metering valve will be a vertical shaft with a T lever on top of it at the rear of the pump. The governor spring acts against it and if it won't turn, no fuel goes into the hydraulic head.

 

[shawn2015]

I am in the process of trying to resurrect a 86' 444c thats been sitting for 10 years. Ive already worked though a few other issues and have drained fluids etc. Currently i dont have any fuel getting to the injectors. Ive gone though 7-8 cycles of crank 20 seconds wait 2 minutes.

Ive got fuel going into the injection pump if i crack the line. However ive got the injector lines cracked and not even a dribble of fuel. I took off the return line from the injection pump (the one with the arrow pointing to it) and there was no fuel whatsoever coming out of it. After cranking if i open the screw thats circled (im guessing it bleeds air from the pump) there pressure and fresh diesel behind it and if i take the screw out fiel squirts out for a second until the pressure is releived.

Ive read the following can be issues for no fuel at injectors:

1. Solenoid not working

I can hear the solenoid click when it is turned to start. The resting voltage at the batteries and starter is 12.6 volts. The solenoid sees 11.4 in key on position and while cranking the voltage drops to 9.2. Some people have said wires that are almost broken can cause the solenoid to not stay open when cranking. Is 9.2 volts enough to keep the solenoid from shutting off the fuel supply?

2. Broken injection pump shaft

Im really hoping this isnt it. Since when i open the screw that is circled and there is pressure im hoping the shaft is intact. Also before i did anything i turned the engine over by hand and it turned freely. If the shaft broke i feel like i would have heard it and felt resistance when i first turned it over

3. Stuck metering valve

Ive never been inside an injection pump so if anyones got advice im all ears

The machine ran when it was parked there. Just forgot about for 10 years.

Here a manual maybe that will help you https://mega.nz/#!Sw9WTZIB!r2Sc_Mg2ZC-AzDyZ_u82ja7v-lhJoMSs3TTkSmg5U28

 

[thepumpguysc]

GOOD FIND Shawn.!!!
After 10 years, I'll bet the pumping plungers & MV are stuck.. MV can be taken care of thu the top cover removal but the pumping plungers are internal..
IF you can get the TC off.. and free the MV and she still wont pump.. its pump removal time..
Get the pump #'s off the name plate and I'll tell you if the drive shaft is keyed or not.. or if theres a timing mark under the little side plate on the pump..

 

[shawn2015]

GOOD FIND Shawn.!!!
After 10 years, I'll bet the pumping plungers & MV are stuck.. MV can be taken care of thu the top cover removal but the pumping plungers are internal..
IF you can get the TC off.. and free the MV and she still wont pump.. its pump removal time..
Get the pump #'s off the name plate and I'll tell you if the drive shaft is keyed or not.. or if theres a timing mark under the little side plate on the pump..

Thanks thepumpguysc, I have access to many manuals so if I have what people looking for I gladly share

 

[thepumpguysc]

That's real neighborly of you my friend.. Theres a fella Jim Kennedy 1 thread down that needs a CAV DPA manual for 2 pieces of equipment.. think you could help??
A DPA is a DPA no matter what its on.. with slight variations ofcourse.. so if you have a manual for a Ford or Massey, that would help him out.. I'm sure he would appreciate it..

 

[shawn2015]

I will see what I can find still working on a few other requests

 

[cjohnsen]

Thanks everyone for the helpful comments. Shawn that manual is worth its weight in gold thanks that will be a huge help im sure with issues that will surly arise

thepumpguy thats for the info with the metering valve and plungers. Im really hoping the MV is all thats stuck. Ill have some time to work on it in the next few days and ill post back with what ive found out

The best i can tell the number is 6 DB2635-4929 (John Deere part# RE47058) and the serial number is 8620565

 

[cjohnsen]

Take the top off and see if the metering valve is turning. Nothing will come out of place, just be easy with those torx head screws as they can freeze up in that long run from the head down through the cover into the body. The metering valve will be a vertical shaft with a T lever on top of it at the rear of the pump. The governor spring acts against it and if it won't turn, no fuel goes into the hydraulic head.

thank you. since you posted ive been soaking the torx bits in penetrating oil and ill be care removing them. Hopefully everything goes smoothly

 

[thepumpguysc]

OK, the parts break down on the pump shows> the drive shaft IS keyed.. there IS a timing mark on the weight retainer under the side cover and the housing has a timing mark on the outside ear/mounting flange.. that lines up w/ a mark on the block..
Even tho the dr. shaft is keyed.. your going to need a puller to pop the gear off the tapered shaft.. IF the pump needs to be removed.
Good luck to you and I hope its just a stuck metering valve..
1 little hint>> I use a HAND impact driver and a hammer to shock the torx screws when removing.. a little heat doesn't hurt either.. just drain the fuel out thru the side cover..

 

[wrwtexan]

pumpguy, you may chastise me for this, but instead of getting clearance (usually means removing radiator) to use a gear puller on the driveshaft, I completely release the pump from its mounting bolts, remove the front access cover, take the retaining nut and lock washer of and reinstall the nut leaving space between it and the gear, push the space out from behind the gear, and using a drift bar on the nut, give the drift a good whack with a heavy hammer and the shaft will pop right out of the gear taper. I haven't used a puller yet and have removed many a pump this way. It might ding the nut a bit but that can easily be fixed for what could otherwise be a major teardown.
Regarding a keyed shaft, timing the engine isn't important as it won't go back but one way. Correct? I don't even bother timing before removal anymore on the OLDER engines with CAVs and Roosas. Only thing that bit me was my New Holland skid steer with a crappy Lucas Delphi with no keyway (had to get it running again the hard way) which got tossed and replaced with and old style CAV when it died.

 

[thepumpguysc]

NO worries Texan.. 8 outta 10x I do it the same way.. lol I leave the hold down nuts on a few threads to keep from chasing the pump down when it flys off.. Another helpful hint is to, wedge something between the pump and the block to create a "back pressure" while whacking the nut.. THAT helps ALOT..
I once saw a mechanic strip out the gear threads using a puller on the newer style Stanadyne electronic pump. I walked over as he was in the process of tearing down the front of the motor inorder to get the gear off.. I said, STOP.!!! I loosened the hold down nuts, put a wedge between the pump and block and gave the dr.sh a good wack and she popped right off.. saved about 5 hrs of work..and probably his job..
I just write that to keep folks outta trouble.. you wouldn't believe how many x I've gotten a pump in, that has a smashed-up nut and a bent/stripped drive shaft from people not using a BRASS drift..
its just easier to tell folks to use the correct tool..
As with MANY things, theres usually an easier way..

 

[cjohnsen]

Well not good news...

After spending 2 hours to remove the 3 torx screws one sheared off. Luckily theres enough of a shaft i can soak it in penetrating oil and hopefully remove it with vice grips. Finally got the top cover off and the metering valve seemed to move freely. Theres also black crud in the bottom of the reservoir.

So im at a crossroads. I dont want to give up on the project, but i dont know if i have the knowledge to replace the injection pump. Im very mechanically inclined but with no experience with injection pumps and timing i doint think i would ever be able to get it in correctly. On top of that the machine is in rough shape. There was water in 2 of the cylinders (they wearnt frozen) but when i turned it over without the injectors in it rusty looking crap came out. If i even knew i could replace the injection pump i dont think i would want to spend the 700+ on it to not know if the engine will have enough compression to fire. Plus who knows what else will be wrong with a machine left for 10 years

 

[thepumpguysc]

Yup, that's what happens sometimes.. heck it even happens to me..
IF you want to continue with this project> check the compression, then send "someone" the pump.. I'm SURE "that someone" in question, would look at it for free and give you an estimate..???
IF it wasn't locked up, I'm SURE it wouldn't be $700.00 to get you going..
The pump is easy to get off and on, if you re-read post #'s 11-12-13 ..
Let me know if I can help further.. By PM or email of course..TPG

 

[cjohnsen]

Yup, that's what happens sometimes.. heck it even happens to me..
IF you want to continue with this project> check the compression, then send "someone" the pump.. I'm SURE "that someone" in question, would look at it for free and give you an estimate..???
IF it wasn't locked up, I'm SURE it wouldn't be $700.00 to get you going..
The pump is easy to get off and on, if you re-read post #'s 11-12-13 ..
Let me know if I can help further.. By PM or email of course..TPG

I re read those posts as well as countless more info and i feel like ive got a much better grasp on whats involved now.

So here’s the story with this machine. It belonged to my father who owned an excavation company. He got sick 15 years ago and my mother had to sell the business but we kept a few machines. 10 years ago was the last time it ran. The starter died and no one had the knowledge to replace it. The exhaust rusted off and rain water would come in the exhaust and go straight into the cylinders below (most of the water ended up in cylinders 3 and 4). 6 years ago I was in high school and thought I knew what was needed to fix it. I got stuck at the injectors but I got the exhaust manifold off so no more water got into it.

Now 6 years later im back home. I worked at a bus garage and got experience working with mechanics working on urban busses and my own diesel vehicles.

So far ive replaced the starter, replaced all the filters, replaced all the fluids, dealt with some wiring issues. Now ive got a troublesome injection pump. Heres what worries me. When I cranked it over without the injectors in rusty liquid came out of cylinders 3 and 4 (I had been putting penetrating oil in all the cylinders for a week or so before hand). The other cylders looked good. Heres whats more troublesome. If you look at the video I attached when it turns over whitish smoke comes out of cyliners 1,2,5,6 but not the center 2 (the ones that got the water in them). If I put my hand over the openings it seems there is the same amount of air coming out of all of them. The only difference is the air is warm coming out of 3 and 4 cylinders without the whitish smoke. Keep in mind this is with all the injectors cracked and a faulty injection pump so its definitely not unburned diesel you see. Could be leftover penetrating oil though

https://youtu.be/MGNKpXI5pfs

It would seem my next step is getting a tool to check the compression. Not looking forward to taking the injectors back out again

 

[lantraxco]

Betting the exhaust valves are stuck open on those two cylinders, pop the valve cover and see what the rockers are doing. Rings are probably stuck too, might free up if you can get it running. Check the valves first, if they're stuck open the pistons might be hitting them, or they may already be bent.

 

[cjohnsen]

Ok so i bought a new (used) injection pump. It was from a big tractor supply store and they said it was used but 100% functional.

Im still having issues getting fuel at the injectors. I cranked it over for probably 20 sessions (20 seconds cranking and 2 minutes+ rest). I kept cracking the top bolt in the IP cover and seeing if there was fuel in the reservoir. It took probably 12-15 cycles before the top reservoir was even full of fuel. Now it is and i probably tried 5 more cranking cycles with the injector lines cracked to get fuel at the injectors.

The starter was getting hot and i didnt want to keep going and risk frying it so i called it for the night. I took the return line off from the IP and this is the first time ive got fuel returning from the IP to the tank (the old IP never returned any fuel). So im guessing the new IP is working. Should i just keep doing cranking cycles with the injector lines cracked tomorrow and hope i finally get fuel at them?

 

[cjohnsen]

Betting the exhaust valves are stuck open on those two cylinders, pop the valve cover and see what the rockers are doing. Rings are probably stuck too, might free up if you can get it running. Check the valves first, if they're stuck open the pistons might be hitting them, or they may already be bent.

When cranking over i can look in and see the exhaust valves and they are moving as they should be

 

[lantraxco]

The usual procedure would be to crack open a bleeder or remove the return line and use the little lever under the mechanical transfer pump to prime the IP. I doubt the IP will push much fuel to the injector lines until it has a little pressure inside the housing, not sure. Empty injector lines take a long time to fill as each revolution only pulses a tiny amount of fuel to the injectors. Sounds like you're getting close.