Is anyone having any problems with the new Cat 285/275 CTLs?

[Welder Dave]

It should have been noticed rather quickly. No side loading is ridiculous. Corner loading the bucket introduces side loads and is a very common operation for any type of loader.

 

[Hwg]

The Cat 275 and now the 285 CTLs have been on the market for a little while now and I'm curious if anyone has noticed any problems with them.

I'm thinking specifically of quality control/manufacturing issues but am interested in any issues you've experienced.

Post any good experiences too! I always like to hear those.

my regular cat mechanic said a lot of them have been back to the shop already.

 

[Hwg]

Thanks @Reuben Frazier .

We have a 285 and really like it but it came off the dealer's truck with the lift arms racked to the point the left bucket corner was over an inch above ground level when the machine was sitting on level concrete. No fun trying to keep a level grade with it.

I played around with another 285 on the dealer's lot and it's arms were racked the same direction but not as bad as ours.

I'm really curious if these are the only two machines in North America with this issue or if there are others.

Our dealer said they'd take care of it but their actions so far haven't been matching their talk...

Edit: I've tried adding photos but they're not showing up.

D series also have problems with loader arms not being square with the machine. The first one I bought in 2015 was replaced for free. The replacement machine was the same way but not as bad so I decided to live with it.

 

[CM1995]

I have no evidence, but the more I hear and see about Cat equipment, the more I get the feeling that the customers are the testers and time on the proving ground is a thing of the past.

Not in my experience. Bought 2 new machines and 2 attachments over the last 2 years.

Have 2 279Ds that have been solid machines. No issue with the loader arms either. One is a 2015 and one 2019, bought both new.

 

[AMBMike]

My personal opinion is that it comes down to the dealer, whatever they may say about Cat helping or not.

We happen to be in an area where Cat dominates and we can't count on reliable service for other brands. I believe this can leave the dealer feeling pretty secure about not doing more than absolutely necessary for the customer.

I previously lived in an area where Cat had to compete with other local dealers and they seemed more willing to bend over backwards to keep us happy.

 

[KSSS]

I see your point AMBMike, but honestly, I feel like CAT is putting their dealers in a tough position. The dealer didn't build the machine incorrectly, Cat did. Since of course they represent Cat and they are first line in taking care of the customer, they are the face of the issue. If Cat isn't willing to support fixing the issue, what is a dealer to do? The dealer doesn't have a lot of options as you know. Try to make it right, out of their pocket and hopefully do it in a way that doesn't damage their relationship with the mothership or effect the machines warranty. Seems like it could be a tight wire to walk. In this recent issue being discussed, wielding some stops on each side of the boom would, it appears would take care of the issue. CAT needs to just involve themselves in the solution instead of ignoring it, blaming it on the customer, putting out specs so loose that there is no accountability, properly vetting their machines before release, all of this could be a success story of how they stand behind their products, and not what this has turned into.

Naturally if a dealer knows they don't really have to "earn" your business, they just get it, they don't have to stretch themselves out there, because your coming back no matter what. It is really surprising that no one else is a capable dealership in your area. Competition makes everyone better.

 

[Welder Dave]

The dealers need to get together to force the issue with Cat. It's unacceptable for any manufacturer especially when they're supposed to be known for their high quality.

 

[Hwg]

Not in my experience. Bought 2 new machines and 2 attachments over the last 2 years.

Have 2 279Ds that have been solid machines. No issue with the loader arms either. One is a 2015 and one 2019, bought both new.

It might show up more on vertical lift machines. Force the loader all the way up or down and watch for movement. Every 59 throu 99 I’ve encountered does it.

 

[AMBMike]

It might show up more on vertical lift machines. Force the loader all the way up or down and watch for movement. Every 59 throu 99 I’ve encountered does it.

I know Cat had issues with the D series vertical lift arms at first but our 2024 D3 doesn't have any issues.

Off topic slightly but I'm personally disappointed Cat has stopped manufacturing radial lift CTLs, especially in the large frame size. Most of what we do with them is digging and grading, and in my experience at least, the radial lift machines have less play in the arms, are more robust, and have greater reach at mid height for backfilling or similar duties. Also, a large frame radial lift can still load high side trucks if you're willing to push into the center rather than dump in the center.

If I'm loading trucks every day, a CTL or skid steer isn't my first choice, and if I'm loading or unloading any amount of pallets or pipe I prefer a purpose built machine, such as a telehandler or forklift. A radial lift will do all of these duties in a pinch and stand up to the rigors of earthwork and grading without complaint. And for loading or unloading palletized freight the extra reach can be the difference between doing it all from one side or have to position the truck to access both sides with the machine.

A vertical lift machine, in my opinion, is an overly complex trade-off between a forklift and a dirt moving machine. It works great for loading dump trucks if you're not trying for production and don't mind paying truck drivers for waiting. They don't handle loading or unloading palletized freight all that well due to jerkiness when turning on hard surfaces, although this applies to CTLs and skid steers in general. They have worse sight lines, especially to the side, due to the extra linkages required.
There are some things they do excel in like drilling post holes, although, again in my experience, an experienced operator has no issue keeping a straight hole with a radial lift.

It almost seems like manufacturers became a victim of their own marketing and now face a shrinking market for radial lift machines due to the perception that vertical lift machines are a great match for every scenario.

OK, I got that off my chest. Rant over.

 

[KSSS]

I too like large frame Radial lift machines. I had two, a CASE 320 and 340. Being able to see out is much easier, far less moving parts, less things to get sloppy. They are going the way of the dodo bird. Takeuchi though seems pretty committed to them still.

 

[Hwg]

I know Cat had issues with the D series vertical lift arms at first but our 2024 D3 doesn't have any issues.

Off topic slightly but I'm personally disappointed Cat has stopped manufacturing radial lift CTLs, especially in the large frame size. Most of what we do with them is digging and grading, and in my experience at least, the radial lift machines have less play in the arms, are more robust, and have greater reach at mid height for backfilling or similar duties. Also, a large frame radial lift can still load high side trucks if you're willing to push into the center rather than dump in the center.

If I'm loading trucks every day, a CTL or skid steer isn't my first choice, and if I'm loading or unloading any amount of pallets or pipe I prefer a purpose built machine, such as a telehandler or forklift. A radial lift will do all of these duties in a pinch and stand up to the rigors of earthwork and grading without complaint. And for loading or unloading palletized freight the extra reach can be the difference between doing it all from one side or have to position the truck to access both sides with the machine.

A vertical lift machine, in my opinion, is an overly complex trade-off between a forklift and a dirt moving machine. It works great for loading dump trucks if you're not trying for production and don't mind paying truck drivers for waiting. They don't handle loading or unloading palletized freight all that well due to jerkiness when turning on hard surfaces, although this applies to CTLs and skid steers in general. They have worse sight lines, especially to the side, due to the extra linkages required.
There are some things they do excel in like drilling post holes, although, again in my experience, an experienced operator has no issue keeping a straight hole with a radial lift.

It almost seems like manufacturers became a victim of their own marketing and now face a shrinking market for radial lift machines due to the perception that vertical lift machines are a great match for every scenario.

OK, I got that off my chest. Rant over.

I also prefer radial lift ctl’s. Way faster to grease in the morning. I actually prefer 100series takeuchis, with some minor under carriage and cab changes. There’s always something at the end of a job that needs to go on a truck after the hoe has left, that’s the reason for a vertical lift size 59 or 89. Reason I don’t buy more Takeuchi is the current dealer support, reason why most of my junk is cat is because of parts and mechanic support. I have also quit buying new cat, I buy 15-20 year old and have them rebuilt, then I get another 15k hours out of them.

 

[CM1995]

It might show up more on vertical lift machines. Force the loader all the way up or down and watch for movement. Every 59 throu 99 I’ve encountered does it.

Not ours.

I bought the 279D's with the radial arms for fine grading. We have other equipment to load trucks and lift higher.

 

[blacktopper]

UPDATE: My cat salesman called today, Cat Corporate denies its a problem, "havent seen this much", bullcrap! My dealer is going to take the machine back into the shop and try to fabricate a saddle like the older models. I am happy with my dealer for trying to help with the problem, dissapointed with Cat for not doing better.

 

[AMBMike]

UPDATE: My cat salesman called today, Cat Corporate denies its a problem, "havent seen this much", bullcrap! My dealer is going to take the machine back into the shop and try to fabricate a saddle like the older models. I am happy with my dealer for trying to help with the problem, dissapointed with Cat for not doing better.

Sounds familiar...

 

[KSSS]

Well, the upside is at least your loader arms are not jacked up and this fix should be pretty simple. The term "have not seen this much" says a lot, without saying it out loud. At least the dealer isn't saying, "there is nothing we can do if Cat doesn't authorize it". High five to them for stepping up.

Watch, some time soon, the new machines will come from the factory with stops.

 

[Welder Dave]

The dealer could pressure Cat to fix the problem and even send them an invoice for fixing the problem. Maybe Cat corporate is behind the logic that small customers and/or machines aren't nearly as important as the big customers with several big machines?? Lincoln Electric has a pretty arrogant corporate attitude like nobody else makes machines as good as theirs.

 

[hseII]

As a company that has never owned a CAT machine, had the poster said he had a machine that was new and jacked up, CAT stood behind it and correctly fixed it without hassle, that is powerful and influential on my next purchase decision (I doubt I am alone in that thought). It says your name really does mean something. However, when this situation occurs, it says just the opposite. It's not the cheap solution up front but further down the spread sheet it really is, especially with the power of social media. A mess up like this can actually create more goodwill toward your brand. Word gets out and it can cut both ways.

That’s the part often overlooked by dealers & corporate bean counters.

Hopefully they will do what’s honorable in the end.

 

[j-dubya]

Allow me to throw another variable in here as a Cat 285 owner, and convert from previous Takeuchi TL12v2…

I noticed my 285 had the slight can’t on the cutting edge when I first picked it up from the dealer back in early November. Things like that stick out to me, and I always want to know why. I had my suspicion then, and I think it is the actual culprit after taking a bunch of measurements.

The guy(s) in this thread whose loader arms don’t sit down equally on both loader stops - that is a different issue…

The main culprit I believe (and haven’t seen mentioned here) - the equalizer bar.

I now have 80 hours on the machine, and wanted to get some time on it to see if the joints at the track frames were just stiff because of being brand new. When I take a bunch of measurements to compare off of a flat concrete shop floor, towards the center of the machine: the coupler/arm hinge pins, the top outer corners of the coupler itself when arms down and tilt cylinder fully retracted (so the coupler face is near vertical), there is about 3/8”-1/2” difference between sides. Of course, as you get further away from the center of the machine - such as the cuttings corners - the difference increases…but not simply because the machine is that bad out of square, but because from center: what ever change you make on one side you get the opposite change on the other.

My machine has a 1” difference on the 86” factory bucket corners. Again, back at the arm hinge pins, it’s only about 1/4”. Coupler corners about 1/2”.

Now, going back and measuring points on the machine frame, such as the loader arm stop frame brackets, the difference is again 1/4”. Go back further to the equalizer bar frame stops…1/4” difference.

Next I checked “level” between machine farm side and loader arm side. Using a digital angle gauge, I zeroed in the from step on the machine tub (not the step on the loader arm cross bar that you actually use. On the new Cat machines, there is a second step to access the cab if your loader arms are up in the air. It’s 3/4” thick and part of the tub structure. Both loader arms, the arm cross tube, the coupler, even the left and right track frames, are all within .1* of each other. If I really mash the loader arm down into the stops, because I can watch one side just kiss its stop before the other side does - I can see the variance grow to .2* on certain surfaces.

I’m just an amateur-level metal fabricator, but I do understand heat warp. Between all those different welded parts, and facing surfaces to bolt other major parts to that have had a bunch of welding, I don’t think that’s too bad considering its mass production and may not exactly have a tolerance standard much above that. I don’t know, as this is my first time really measuring heavy equipment tolerances beyond cutting edges and precision grading attachments.

On another note, I do experience more loader arm flex than I’d like when side loading, and am considering some side stops on the loader arm stop pads. I can see evidence of my arms touching the machine step. That said, another thing I keep inconsideration is the amount of side to side play in the all the pin joints of the lift arms and coupler hinge pins. That free play is part of the design according to Cat, because I initially inquired about shimming the coupler pins up to reduce play and dirt intrusion. The other thing to consider is while my Takeuchi didn’t have the arm flex I see with the Cat, the Cat’s arm design is lifting 16” higher than a TL12v2. I figure there’s got to be some give and take to achieve this new territory in lift height. Time will tell.

While perhaps Cat did a change to the loader arms after some of the posters ran their machines, and my machine did receive the revision, I don’t know. But all that matters is the cutting edge, and I still see the same issue as the other guys here. It just seems to me to be related to the equalizer bar squat on *mine* more so than manufacturing issues on the arm assembly.

I would be very interested to see the other owners here do comparisons on their machines.

 

[AMBMike]

Interesting thoughts. Thank you.

How do you see the equalizer bar causing the symptoms you're having? Not saying your wrong, just trying to wrap my head around it.

With the equalizer bar undercarriage the machine frame or tub is essentially resting on the undercarriage through three points, those being the equalizer bar center pin and the pivot shafts on either side just ahead of the drive sprockets.
This means the level of the entire machine, with the exception of the undercarriage, is determined by the level of the pivot shafts until the equalizer bar pivots to the point of contacting the machine frame.

What we're seeing may be different but on our machine and others I've tested the arm/coupler/bucket level differed from the frame of the machine itself.

 

[Tones]

Has anyone checked to see if the tub is twisted? I experienced this on a machine I owned, it had a 2" twist from corner to corner which created abnormal track wear. It was a forestry mulcher so the difference as far as doing finished grade work didn't matter. The manufacturer wouldn't acknowledge the fault but every other machine around the world had the same twist.
I suggest removing the arms and check that they are correct, then measure up all of the rest of the machine.
Having undercarriage suspension makes the fix so much easier.