There is very tough rock out there. Upwards of 10,000 psi. Would this be effective on that type of rock given that it is only putting out what looks like 5,500 psi? I'm not a physicist but, in my layman thinking, I would think that the fracturing pressure would have to be higher than the rock psi and whatever it took to displace the rock too (superseding the weight of the mass being moved).
-
Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!
Innovative Rock Breaking
- Thread starter Niall
- Start date
There is very tough rock out there. Upwards of 10,000 psi. Would this be effective on that type of rock given that it is only putting out what looks like 5,500 psi? I'm not a physicist but, in my layman thinking, I would think that the fracturing pressure would have to be higher than the rock psi and whatever it took to displace the rock too (superseding the weight of the mass being moved).
Niall
Active Member
Cheers, i thought so as well, smart bosses 
"We are exposing rocks tensile weakness", by inserting our "syringe" and pulling it.
Unconfined compressive strength:
Granite 100-250 MPa
Basalt 100-300 MPa (300MPa=43,511 PSI)
Quartzite 150-300 MPa
Sandstone 20-170 MPa
Shale 5-100 MPa
as opposed to
Tensile strengths:
Granite 7-25 MPa (25MPa=3625PSI)
Basalt 10-30 MPa (30MPa=4351PSI!!!)
Gneiss 5-20 MPa
Quartzite 10-30 MPa
Sandstone 4-25 MPa
Shale 2-10 MPa
Limestone 5-25 MPa
Marble 15 MPa.
"We are exposing rocks tensile weakness", by inserting our "syringe" and pulling it.
Unconfined compressive strength:
Granite 100-250 MPa
Basalt 100-300 MPa (300MPa=43,511 PSI)
Quartzite 150-300 MPa
Sandstone 20-170 MPa
Shale 5-100 MPa
as opposed to
Tensile strengths:
Granite 7-25 MPa (25MPa=3625PSI)
Basalt 10-30 MPa (30MPa=4351PSI!!!)
Gneiss 5-20 MPa
Quartzite 10-30 MPa
Sandstone 4-25 MPa
Shale 2-10 MPa
Limestone 5-25 MPa
Marble 15 MPa.
Last edited:
Niall
Active Member
old-iron-habit
Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2012
- Messages
- 4,233
- Location
- Moose Lake, MN
- Occupation
- Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
Has this machine been tested on concrete?
Niall
Active Member
Yep, and concrete has very low tensile strength(700psi) must have been easy work at low pressure
Niall
Active Member
Niall
Active Member
Here is a new video of recent tests in Steamboat Springs, first person view compilation. Rock was very tough homogeneous glacial boulder needing around 6.5k PSI to break
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=E00A8FB6BCA55FC9!109&authkey=!AP3cRLcdv2ZhWfM&ithint=video%2c.wmv
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=E00A8FB6BCA55FC9!109&authkey=!AP3cRLcdv2ZhWfM&ithint=video%2c.wmv
HATCHEQUIP
Senior Member
Looking good Niall, liked the vids
Niall
Active Member
Niall
Active Member
Niall
Active Member
we have found little hurdles
Ideas!
when setting up for drilling/indexing/sliding breaker in, so nothing moves, it is tough to originally set the "stinger" having to move the entire machine, so either a feed tray under the "indexer" or replacing boom with a manlift boom to use its extension(yet won't work in certain directions, and I'm not 100% on weight capabilities if horizontal(knowledge appreciated)
ideas for getting to fit in a hole?
design/build shorter cab?(are there legality issues with customizing bodies of machines regarding MSHA? more then a bigger fire extinguisher), dissassemble/reassemble? pop the tires? what are some of your tricks? just a big machine,
speaking of: anyone in CO area with a mine lets chat!
Ideas!
when setting up for drilling/indexing/sliding breaker in, so nothing moves, it is tough to originally set the "stinger" having to move the entire machine, so either a feed tray under the "indexer" or replacing boom with a manlift boom to use its extension(yet won't work in certain directions, and I'm not 100% on weight capabilities if horizontal(knowledge appreciated)
ideas for getting to fit in a hole?
design/build shorter cab?(are there legality issues with customizing bodies of machines regarding MSHA? more then a bigger fire extinguisher
), dissassemble/reassemble? pop the tires? what are some of your tricks? just a big machine, speaking of: anyone in CO area with a mine lets chat!
HATCHEQUIP
Senior Member
Niall why not put a mast on it like a conventional hydraulic drill with hydraulic feed wouldn't have to be as long could shorten it up and make it as long as needed
Colorado Digger
Senior Member
All I know, Is that we invited you to come down from Steamboat. I have plenty of large rock. I'll stick with drilling and feathering. Show me something better. If you are planning on cutting your teeth on the western slope, you may want to think about it.
Sorry, CD
On EDIT. We will mobe you from Steamboat To Glenwood Springs. Let's see if your machine can break 6' footer's
Sorry, CD
On EDIT. We will mobe you from Steamboat To Glenwood Springs. Let's see if your machine can break 6' footer's
Last edited:
Niall
Check out a rock drill like an IR ECM 370 to get an idea of the movements you would like to have. You may even be able to adapt the whole guide assembly from one, though I imagine you would want to shorten it some. It doesn't look like you need 14' of travel like that drill.
Also, incorporate some feet into the base to grab the rock when you push against it so when you retract the drill and rotate to the injection unit the whole thing will stay in position.
One other idea would be to adapt your head unit to a complete drill rig with the extendable boom and all of the guide functions already built so you do not need to reinvent the wheel. I may be too far away from you, but I have a complete IR ECM 370 you could use for a prototype.
I do like the mobility of the little Volvo you have it on now though. Maybe some combination of that for a carrier and the IR guide? I would love to see it work, as there may be some good opportunities near here.
Check out a rock drill like an IR ECM 370 to get an idea of the movements you would like to have. You may even be able to adapt the whole guide assembly from one, though I imagine you would want to shorten it some. It doesn't look like you need 14' of travel like that drill.
Also, incorporate some feet into the base to grab the rock when you push against it so when you retract the drill and rotate to the injection unit the whole thing will stay in position.
One other idea would be to adapt your head unit to a complete drill rig with the extendable boom and all of the guide functions already built so you do not need to reinvent the wheel. I may be too far away from you, but I have a complete IR ECM 370 you could use for a prototype.
I do like the mobility of the little Volvo you have it on now though. Maybe some combination of that for a carrier and the IR guide? I would love to see it work, as there may be some good opportunities near here.
Niall
Active Member
HE- mmmm i gotcha, still torn though because our injection unit is not exactly light but like you say thinking about putting the indexing tray(feeding assembly) on its own short feed, cause right now the indexing tray is directly on that helac (mast?)
Cheers CD yea I brought you up to the guys but didn't get a bite, the rock in the last video was around 8x8 so i'd love to see it got to town on a good pile (different data then sensors). I'll keep pushing! I think since that broke though its about going in the hole to show it off to get picked up, you know, toe shots, shots while utilities are up, confined facework
JDOF thanks for the offer! looking at it good, that IR is very similar to a ripamonti they used as a carrier, no quide though. Yea I'm the hand that helps try not to reinvent the wheel and i like that action! especially adding a helac at the end (admitedly smaller) and that boom length looks to extend too?. sweet foot grappling idea definately bringing that up
About the Volvo... lets say feed assembly pointing left, drilling, the drill extension piston is forceful enough to push assembly/boom back and try to rotate the house clockwise. So we have reduced pressure delivered from the spool of its valve(not restricted flow)...works... but we wanna drill faster!
what I'm asking is, can my slew drive motor hold the house better? should i be thinking this because apparently I shouldn't even slew dirt(volvo manual)?
or do you guys think any firmness gain from stiffening the whole action would be lost by the dang tires anyway (there is a blade, but you know)?
Cheers CD yea I brought you up to the guys but didn't get a bite, the rock in the last video was around 8x8 so i'd love to see it got to town on a good pile (different data then sensors). I'll keep pushing! I think since that broke though its about going in the hole to show it off to get picked up, you know, toe shots, shots while utilities are up, confined facework
JDOF thanks for the offer! looking at it good, that IR is very similar to a ripamonti they used as a carrier, no quide though. Yea I'm the hand that helps try not to reinvent the wheel and i like that action! especially adding a helac at the end (admitedly smaller) and that boom length looks to extend too?. sweet foot grappling idea definately bringing that up
About the Volvo... lets say feed assembly pointing left, drilling, the drill extension piston is forceful enough to push assembly/boom back and try to rotate the house clockwise. So we have reduced pressure delivered from the spool of its valve(not restricted flow)...works... but we wanna drill faster!
what I'm asking is, can my slew drive motor hold the house better? should i be thinking this because apparently I shouldn't even slew dirt(volvo manual)?
or do you guys think any firmness gain from stiffening the whole action would be lost by the dang tires anyway (there is a blade, but you know)?
Niall
The slew drive on any excavator, especially a small one like the Volvo you have, is not up to resisting the force applied to the end of the boom. For this reason, it would be better to try to set up the drilling so that it is pushing inline, and not sideways. I am sure you thought of that already though. That said, I know that due to access limitations on many jobs, you don't always get to pick what is the best angle for the machine to drill from.
On the IR drill I have the boom slewing motion is done with a hydraulic cylinder, so there is no drift at all, but there is rotational movement of the whole machine, as well as slight deflection in the boom when drilling at a high feed pressure. It is worse when the boom is extended. It has about a 4 foot extension.
For your foot grapple, maybe some 1/2" bolts through a plate, with the ends ground into points, and maybe 2" long, give or take. I would do 4 or 5 in a box pattern, maybe with one in the center. This is "borrowed" from the layout on the foot of the IR I have.
Back to the little Volvo. Does it have a built in swing brake? If so, is it functioning correctly? Can you add some kind of ring to the rotec and put a supplemental brake on it to hold the swing?
Just some ideas for you to think about.
I would love to see your little toy in action someday.
The slew drive on any excavator, especially a small one like the Volvo you have, is not up to resisting the force applied to the end of the boom. For this reason, it would be better to try to set up the drilling so that it is pushing inline, and not sideways. I am sure you thought of that already though. That said, I know that due to access limitations on many jobs, you don't always get to pick what is the best angle for the machine to drill from.
On the IR drill I have the boom slewing motion is done with a hydraulic cylinder, so there is no drift at all, but there is rotational movement of the whole machine, as well as slight deflection in the boom when drilling at a high feed pressure. It is worse when the boom is extended. It has about a 4 foot extension.
For your foot grapple, maybe some 1/2" bolts through a plate, with the ends ground into points, and maybe 2" long, give or take. I would do 4 or 5 in a box pattern, maybe with one in the center. This is "borrowed" from the layout on the foot of the IR I have.
Back to the little Volvo. Does it have a built in swing brake? If so, is it functioning correctly? Can you add some kind of ring to the rotec and put a supplemental brake on it to hold the swing?
Just some ideas for you to think about.
I would love to see your little toy in action someday.
I would bet that there is a swing brake built into the top of the swing motor like most, if not all, other excavators. This might be something to look at modifying, or improving. It has already been mentioned that end users will inevitably find themselves in a situation where they will need to drill "against the swing". Many will do this just to save from repositioning the machine. I would consider it a given and try to engineer a machine capable of withstanding such demands. Modification of the OE swing motor is possible but I doubt it will be as cost effective as trying to modify a larger swing motor to fit the smaller machine (assuming it has the room to fit a larger swing motor). The swing brake is very much like a clutch and more braking power can be obtained with one, or a combination of, at least three methods:
1) Use a stronger spring in the brake. The swing brake of an excavator is default set to be on. Once the operator engages the swing motor, hydraulic pressure is diverted to a piston which will override the spring of the brake, thus allowing movement from the motor. When the operator centers the lever, this pressure drops, the spring begins to override the pressure, and the brake is applied. With that in mind, one may have to increase the pressure to the piston, or increase the surface area of the piston, to override a stronger spring.
2) Increase the amount of discs in the brake pack, which will increase the surface area that creates the friction, thus effectively increasing braking power.
3) Increase the size of the discs in the brake pack, also effectively increasing braking power.
Since the brake pack is inside the housing of the OE swing motor it may be difficult to modify (may require significant machining). Even if you can get any of the above modifications done, hydraulic engineering will likely be required to get any sort of precise control of the swing function. It is certainly possible, but it may be difficult.
Another much more crude option has just occurred to me. One could possible use a manual stop mechanism like those used on articulated equipment for transportation purposes (drop the pin through the round hole). I would imagine that one could even accomplish engagement with a solenoid. Obviously this would have limited possible rotational location (clocking) options, when compared to the swing brake options, but might involve a lot less engineering to accomplish. We've all heard the old adage, "Keep it simple stupid" (or KISS). When I say "we" I am, of course, excluding any, and all, politicians and it seems heavy equipment/automotive engineers as of late.
1) Use a stronger spring in the brake. The swing brake of an excavator is default set to be on. Once the operator engages the swing motor, hydraulic pressure is diverted to a piston which will override the spring of the brake, thus allowing movement from the motor. When the operator centers the lever, this pressure drops, the spring begins to override the pressure, and the brake is applied. With that in mind, one may have to increase the pressure to the piston, or increase the surface area of the piston, to override a stronger spring.
2) Increase the amount of discs in the brake pack, which will increase the surface area that creates the friction, thus effectively increasing braking power.
3) Increase the size of the discs in the brake pack, also effectively increasing braking power.
Since the brake pack is inside the housing of the OE swing motor it may be difficult to modify (may require significant machining). Even if you can get any of the above modifications done, hydraulic engineering will likely be required to get any sort of precise control of the swing function. It is certainly possible, but it may be difficult.
Another much more crude option has just occurred to me. One could possible use a manual stop mechanism like those used on articulated equipment for transportation purposes (drop the pin through the round hole). I would imagine that one could even accomplish engagement with a solenoid. Obviously this would have limited possible rotational location (clocking) options, when compared to the swing brake options, but might involve a lot less engineering to accomplish. We've all heard the old adage, "Keep it simple stupid" (or KISS). When I say "we" I am, of course, excluding any, and all, politicians and it seems heavy equipment/automotive engineers as of late.
According to the brochure this machine does have a swing brake, which surprises me, many mini-ex's don't just the motor holding on the lock valve. That being said, if the stock brake won't hold with the work you're doing, it's an endless chain of modifications to try and improve it, as the gear teeth on the rotek bearing are only going to take so much, there's always going to be a weak link.
Best thing would be to have plate sections machined in a circle to bolt under the bearing if there's room, mount one or two brake calipers under the house to lock things down when you're drilling. But that's just my opinion.
Best thing would be to have plate sections machined in a circle to bolt under the bearing if there's room, mount one or two brake calipers under the house to lock things down when you're drilling. But that's just my opinion.
That is along the lines of what I was thinking. A ring mounted to the carbody, and a caliper mounted to the house. It could even be a cable operated brake, but an automatic hydraulic one plumbed into the regular swing brake would be pretty neat, but a lot more work.