hydraulics - knowledge and understanding - dump bed build

[I SAW IT]

Hi yall'

I'm Leroy - new here - first post..

Though I suspect I'll be around a bit as I have many upcoming Earth moving Ideas, that I'd like to build, and to save myself much money and trouble. I'd like to pick yall's brains before blundering into making any mistakes.

First let me begin with a bit on my background, novice engineer, plenty of small machine building, did professional body and paint work 10y, now do HVAC and electrical self employed 3y, going alright. But I want to do side business doing Earth work and Tree service, my buddy makes sh** tonne more $$ than me and works outside - I want some of that action as it's almost spring time and the economy here is growing for construction.

Also I bought a small parcel of raw land that i've been clearing out and shaping up, so these equipments I need to build to do my own work, and then to have to do side work for others, maybe advertise and get some jobs. My plans are modest, I cannot afford to buy a dump truck, dozer, excavator, bucket truck or anything much really, go I'm going to build my own facsimile of real equipment and paint it nice, maybe fake stickers - who knows.

My goal is 10% build costs of the real deal, with plenty adequate functionality for part time use. (see 'poor' not 'cheap') Also have a connection at a salvage yard for buckets, hydraulic misc, cylinders ect. but that stuff i'll tap for when I build a little excavator.

blah blah - hope I don't get TLR

cuts to the chase

Firstly, I am needing to build a dump bed - to fill dirt 18" over a few acres to fill in low spots on my land that flood in the spring, designing and building a dump bed to fit in my pickup truck / 85' F250 IDI DIESEL 4X4 4SP .

And I don't know anything about hydraulics, so I need you're help.

I picked up a 12v hydraulic pump for a cool 60 bucks. It squirts when a jumper cable is applied, the PO had it on a 14' flat bed E-series van and said it works good.

Does anyone recognize what type of pump this is? the cap is printed MTS, but the label has fallen off. I'd like to know so I can download the illustrated parts list, for understanding and repair parts if they become necessary.

The bed is going to be built of 4x10 ft, 1+1/8 plywood .. 4x4's, 2x4's ect .. and will be a slide in/ out deal when in use.

I thought about converting my truck bed itself, as i'm sure it would be same cost and effort, but my truck is nice. It does work exclusively, but doesn't 'look' like a work truck. and whenever I load up gravels, dirt, coal, stone ect .. they fellers want to use the biggest FEL they seem to have and dump 1/4 of the load onto the tailgate and bed rails. this wood insert dump bed will taper out and up and hang out the back. the stock tailgate will be pulled off when in use.

okay, so I have a pump, now for the cylinder side of the equation. I have a 3 tonne hydraulic jack that used to work good, a couple of months ago I messed up the pump handle part but the scissor mechanics and the cylinder are good. just the handle pump is broken. it'd lift my whole truck, so it's got to be able to lift a few tonnes of material.

so I would like to hook up this 12v pump to the hydraulic jack to go between the bed stock and the dump bed. There are several ports and screws on the auto jack, does anyone know what to do to plumb this to the pump?

Also, I understand I'll need some pressure relief valve yes? is it possible to run without one? where is said valve installed in the oil circuit? cheap vendor and pop pressure?

do i have to have a spool valve? this thing is just going up, then down.

can I just power it up off a solenoid for dump and release power to let the weight of the bed lower it back down?

can the 12v hydraulic pump go in reverse to lower the bed or at least start it in motion from a 1 sec power up.

should I just buy a 6 block bi-directional spool valve and relief valve and quit trying to pinch pennies? Is there safe redneck ways of doing this by cheapest means necessary, please speak up. I'm going for lowest cost that'll do the job.

i have to dump this dirt first, next project will be to build a little clevis mounted dozer blade with a 3x16"x6' oak slab blade on the front to push these piles around.. kinda like a cheap snow plow. plan on using these same hydraulic system for the actuators and cylinders and whatever gonna be needed for that .. anyway, getting a little ahead of myself .. any tips/ tricks from the pro's is greatly appreciated ..

thanks ! Leroy Sr.

Pics>

 

[I SAW IT]

 

[I SAW IT]

 

[I SAW IT]

 

[DMiller]

You will be hard pressed to get the work you expect from the minimal investment you make. Easier to buy a junker dump truck and refurb the hydraulics to fit your machine while reconfiguring the bed as a trailer or dragged appliance behind a ag tractor with remote hydraulics. Average decent load of any material will have median weight, that is not the problem, getting enough oil to push a piston and generate movement with any speed is. If you have all day to await the movement of the bed to full tilt then you might get away with the set up you look to build, I would not go that route.

Frames on trucks are Not Dozer quality neither are Ag tractors unless you enjoy fixing what you just destroyed Often. Pushing loose material seems a fair task but it only takes One hard snag at speed to twist a frame or tweak a Ag loader frame.

Do yourself a favor, save your cash up and buy something designed to do what you are trying to rig up that will only cost you more over time.

 

[I SAW IT]

I respect your opinion, and for most folks/ that seems like sage advice. But I build everything pretty much because I have to, and pennies on the dollar.. this is just 1 of half a dozen big projects that require my immediate investment, so saving up and buying off the shelf is not an option.. i'd be breaking my back saving and saving for years .. and I have much to do in months ..

This can be done, and I'll do it. please advise if yall have any ideas .

also for the little pusher blade.. i'll be welding up a little I beam sub frame with automotive struts to take some of the impact. all the stumps will be flush cut and ground. i'm also in the middle of a stump grinder build that'll be done soon. yes I agree though. i wouldn't take that thing out with stones and stumps, it'd sure to wreck a frame.. even a big F250 HD (350 frame / just srw not drw and different brakes makes diesel a 250) .. but still, I won't be taking that setup on unknown pastures. there's not one stone on my property, just felled old hardwoods.. had to quarry my own stones, about 15 tonne sitting in piles awaiting an above freezing 10d forcast - building a bridge - another of those big expensive projects I have to do. wish I had that dumper already when unloading all that stone.

 

[Ronsii]

Don't recognize the pump but most of that type are similar... if it has a reversible motor you can quickly find out by hooking it up backwards but the way most of those auto hydraulic pumps are set up is for double acting hydraulic cylinders if that is the case.... and your auto jack is single acting.... so that would be a problem. the jack will lift your rig just fine with about 10 inches of lift but once you try to lift a dump bed 6-8 feet in the front the leverage is working against you the most you'll be able to list is a couple hundred pounds...maybe.... so to make it work you'll have to make the bed longer so it is more balanced with a lot more load behind the pivot point and in doing this you will have lost of other issues.... so the main thing is your jack is the wrong tool for the job... have you look at the rolling tarp unloader things for the back of a pickup? cheap, simple and work!!! and you could build one easy enough

 

[I SAW IT]

So, I dug an old jack I had stashed behind the shed. Found it long ago in the woods, it's also a 3 tonne, but was missing a handle and sprocket to fit.

Since my other jack is now to be relegated to pump duty, I decided to see if the parts were close enough to scavenge off the one and put on the older jack. to see if it worked. well none of the parts were an exact fit, but all of the parts were close, and between the two, got the handle working well and the old pumper works great. being in the retracted position for years the cyliner bore is still shiny and fine. every other pivot point was rusted, and she got a ATF bath, works great though, still gonna have to cut a pin for the handle though so can't drag it along yet. seemingly misplaced jack pads .. grumbles looking around. ..

got another floor jack again, that's great. and the torin 3 tonne is now handleless and ready to be dedicated for a dumper bed.

 

[Delmer]

As scrubpuller used to say, the dirt hasn't changed. He might have meant something different by it, hope he's not offended.

So you think you're smarter and more resourceful than the people you came to ask for advice? congratulations!

I was going to answer your questions, but with a post like that, sometimes I just don't know where to start. Dmiller answered that well enough. I've never known him to be off. On the other hand you talk about "18 inches of fill over several acres" and building equipment for "pennies on the dollar", take a look around this site, there's plenty of people fabricating stuff, get an idea of what they fabricate and what brings them to do it, it's not saving money usually. That's not because they're less intelligent or resourceful than you are...

There's plenty of people on here repairing relics of trucks and machinery, see what they go through before thinking your self designed and built equipment is going to perform better than something from decades past.

I'll look through the threads again to see if there's any relevant questions to be answered, but I won't repeat the warnings that it won't work well, or be worth the effort, because I just did.

edit:
Your jack already has a relief valve, it's set at 10,000 PSI typically, which is what hydraulic jacks and porta power's are rated for. Your most common hydraulics like farm equipment, and to some degree industrial and construction equipment, has a pressure in the 2,000-3,000 PSI range (new stuff goes 4-5 more often,and if you have a farm tractor from the 30's-40's-50's it might be less than 2,000). Most likely that pump was hooked to a typical dump cylinder which had a much larger bore and longer stroke to work well with a dump bed. Your jack will lift less than 1,000 lbs 10-15 inches with that pump, not very helpful. If you want do build your own hoist, check out the winch lifts on youtube, they work great, I've seen them in person used fairly regularly (amish dump wagon, hand crank). OR find a used dump bed or dump truck and fix it up.

 

[I SAW IT]

I haven't looked at the tarp unloader, never heard of that/ i'll google it for sure. i agree about your leverage point concern. I am thinking of keeping my toolbox in and that leaves 6ft bed area, with a 10 ft dump bed that leaves 6' in / 4' out and alongs there a pivot so that should mostly mitigate that concern.

though i have thought that i'll need to drill into the bed and put large "J" hooks or something to sling under the frame to keep it from tumbling out when the load shifts ..

I measured the jack, and it gets 15" gain, 5 low and 20" raised .. so placed near the rear of the bed at the pivot it should raise the bed 4 ish feet up and 3 feet down off the back ..

maybe i'll build a ramp also and drive equipment like lawn mowers up it too idk .. just thinking .. thanks for the thoughts ..

i'll try to run it backwards and see what it does, In my web searches I did see most are made for / double acting so I don't know if that means i need a dump valve or something / or if it will spool the pump in reverse and go down or if I can power it down .. idk have to figure more on it and play around with it - just don't want to screw anything up. though it doesn't look fragile - but still .. thanks for the food for thought .. i'll be back in awhile - beer run .

 

[Theweldor]

There is a reason your friend makes a lot more money that you. He has a lot more invested and has to pay for it. That is how business works.
The floor jack will not have enough travel to dump a load of anything out of a liner in the box. Also look at a scissor lift assembly in a dump truck. It has a substantially larger cylinder that is in a floor jack. And.. unfortunately an F-250 is nothing more that a grocery getter anymore. They have not built on of them to actually do any work in years.
The power unit you have does not have any solenoids of valve built in by the looks of it. There will be quite a lot of time spent sourcing all of that to work well.
I have to go to the store and stock up on some popcorn. This will be good entertainment.

 

[I SAW IT]

I don't think i'm smarter - that's why i'm asking advice / I don't know jack - literally about this . just offer a correction and explination of the err of my thinking - I quest to learn more about this subject. this approach may be wrong - and so i don't want to build it if it won't work ..

thanks for pointing this out about the 10k psi relief on the jack .. so the feller said this pump was rated 2,500 psi. does that mean it won't work at all to lift a heavy load, or just take a long time? If so, what kind of cylinder will do this that is compatable with this 2,500 psi pump to lift a heavy weight? does it need to be positioned further from the pivot point, have a larger stroke and move more volume? external overflow fluid?

thanks for the tips .. i'll be back here in a bit .

 

[I SAW IT]

oh is that how business works .. i didn't know because i haven't been operating my own business for 12 years now. so i do okay.. dude makes up to 4g a week mostly off his bucket truck- that I don't have money to buy one like that just yet, and I don't have to start from the top anyway. just want a bit more of the action and work and play outside with things that make loud noise and get a tan. hopefully make a few dollars along the way. and save up for the good stuff.

"F-250 is nothing more that a grocery getter anymore. They have not built on of them to actually do any work in years"

good thing she's 34 years old - maybe they were just built ford tough back then. she certainly has no problems passing little toyatas loaded to the rails with tonnes of materials, maybe you drive one of them little sh** box 4 runners I have to practically run over / in the way - full load of real truck passing. enjoy that popcorn.

 

[DMiller]

It will take forever to lift on the jack then you do have to get it back down too
One yard of dirt dry is around 2200 lbs
Sitting in the nose of your box and pivoting in the middle region you might get it dumped but not enough counter weight empty to force it back down
Do not be angry when this does not work

 

[td25c]

…. https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=7623

 

[Ronsii]

…. https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=7623

That was a good article, I always liked how he used the pump

I just remembered another one where the guy used a short ram and then inched the dump part up in about ten cycles of the cylinder he had... It took a little while to dump but hey! it worked. Can't remember if it was on farmshow or another place???

 

[td25c]

Same article in Mother Earth News . Here ya go Leroy . LOL

 

[Delmer]

1. pump was rated 2,500 psi. does that mean it won't work at all to lift a heavy load, or just take a long time?

2. If so, what kind of cylinder will do this that is compatable with this 2,500 psi pump to lift a heavy weight?

3.does it need to be positioned further from the pivot point, have a larger stroke and move more volume? external overflow fluid?

.

1. neither

2. the article td25 linked "two 2 1/2" x24" stroke cylinders" should do it.

3. yes

edit: dude, you understand ohm's law, right? airflow calculations? Hydraulics has the same rules, understand them before trying something like this.

 

[petepilot]

fwiw all I can see happening here is a fairly decent looking f250 getting destroyed

 

[td25c]

Used the same setup on our 1967 Chevy C-30 wrecker to work the boom hydraulics .