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Here's another “how much for this demo?" thread for your consideration

Discussion in 'Demolition' started by tmc_31, Nov 25, 2013.

  1. tmc_31

    tmc_31 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2008
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    Occupation:
    Sports Lighting Contractor
    Location:
    Merkel, Tx
    Hey guys,

    I am estimating a demo on a 600sqft wood frame house in a town about 75 miles from me. The house is very old, probably built in the 50’s or so. It sits over a basement. As I said, it is a wood frame house with stucco on the sides and a shingle roof. I am kind of new to this as I have only demo’ed a couple of small farm buildings (barn & chicken coop). Those were buried in a pit on site. For those demo’s I used a skid steer (NH L190) with a grapple fork which I own. Since this house is over a basement I am considering renting a 3 ton mini ex with a thumb. My best guess is that it will take 2 – 30yd cans and 2 days. The owner has said that he would provide the cans (and I assume, rental, hauling & tipping fees). There won’t be any concrete or brick to load out. In checking with the city, they said that caving in the walls of the basement then backfilling with clean fill was ok as long as there was no organic material in left in the basement.

    I am estimating that the turn key job with me paying for everything including the roll offs and dirt for the basement backfill will run about $8000.

    If the customer pays for the roll offs and the backfill dirt, the job will run about $3500.

    Best I can tell, the cost of a 30 yd roll off is going to be $675 (2 required I think) and the cost of 9 truck loads of dirt to back fill basement will be about $2300.

    Hazardous materials will be extra by contract. I didn’t see anything that might be hazardous during my site visit with the exception of maybe the roofing shingles. I will have to check on those further.

    Permits and insurance are included in the price.

    I need a reality check guys, are these costs reasonable? What am I forgetting?

    Thanks,
    Tim
     
  2. powerjoke

    powerjoke Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    owner/operator/estimator/mechanic/grunt/ditchdigge
    Location:
    Missouri
    I don't pay quite that much for roll offs and I don't really base my price off of anything but it can be figured by xx$$per (I will inbox you my dollar amount, ya never know who's creepin ;) )livable square foot as it normally ends up real close to that number anyways that's including disposal dirt backfill and seed&mulch etc. But it only takes us about 3hrs start to finish on a house that size. We're geared and setup very well for demo with our own fill site and borrow pit, I normally throw about 3 tipper trucks on a job and the disposal company gives us a dedicated driver so by the time they are picking up the last can to get it off site we are backfilling with hoe, load hoe out and then my cleanup crew runs in and grades and seeds, everyone has thier own job,

    The most we've ever done was 3 in one day start to finish with one crew set. But we do 75-100 resi demo's per year and pick up a few large commercials per year
     
  3. tmc_31

    tmc_31 Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    Sports Lighting Contractor
    Location:
    Merkel, Tx
    Thanks for you input Rick

    Tim
     
  4. CM1995

    CM1995 Super Moderator

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    A basic calculation I use for residential demo is 1000SF = 100CY of debris. This is a basic rule of thumb and needs to be tweaked for each one depending on many factors such as type of cladding (siding, brick, stucco), personal contents (furniture, loose debris), etc. I calculate foundation haul-off separately factoring in if it's a slab, crawlspace or basement. Dirt backfill, seeding, etc is a separate line item as well.

    You will need 2-3 30's for this job not including the basement. If you are going to rent a mini ex, I would consider getting a larger one as a 3 ton mini could struggle with demo.

    What are your state regulations regarding residential demo? Do you need an asbestos survey prior to demo? Are you licensed for asbestos abatement?
     
  5. tmc_31

    tmc_31 Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    Sports Lighting Contractor
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    CM1995,

    As far as I know, there are no State regulations governing residential demo other than the environmental landfill regulations governing hazardous waste disposal. As far as I can tell the City is the governing authority for residential demo. They only require permitting and that no organic material be left on site. I am not even sure that they will require an inspection (they didn't say anything about it when I called them).

    No asbestos survey required and no, I am not a licensed asbestos removal contractor. If asbestos is discovered during the demo, all bets (as to cost) are off. An abatement team will have to be brought in to deal with it. The only area where asbestos might be a problem is in the roofing shingles. I will have this checked out before any contract is signed.

    I took a run at estimating the volume of debris that will have to be hauled off and came up with almost exactly 50 yds. Basically I took the volume of all of the surfaces (walls, roof,floor ect.) and added them all up. So your rule of thumb seems to validate my calculation, in this case anyway. One thing that I am struggling with is estimating the weight of the demo materials. My roll off guy says that there is a limit of 10 tons with an additional fee for any tonnage over that. So I have a concern about overloading the cans. Is there a common ratio for tons/yd for common construction materials (no brick, rock or concrete)? Is the 10 ton limit he is referring to the gross weight of the debris and the empty weight of the container or just the weight of the debris?

    Yes I agree that the 3 ton mini is going to be marginal. I would rather find a 5 ton unit. My limit for a 5 ton mini is based on the max I can haul with my equipment. Unfortunately, 5 ton excavators with a thumb, for rent, are scarce as hens teeth in this area. To be truthful though I haven't searched that much. I just happened to spot the 3 ton Tak with a thumb at United Rentals the other day during a drive by.

    Thanks,

    Tim
     
  6. tmc_31

    tmc_31 Senior Member

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
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    Location:
    Merkel, Tx
    Hey guys,

    Another question that comes to mind is how do you protect your jobsite? This demo is in a residential area and there will likely be children in the area. Even though it is a short term project, it is likely that that basement will be open overnight. Right now I am planning to fence off the area around the house with about 400' of orange safety fence. Is this enough? Are there other things that I should do to protect the residents in the area? What steps do you guys take to protect your jobsites and the public for a small job like this?

    Tim
     
  7. powerjoke

    powerjoke Senior Member

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    Location:
    Missouri
    We always do a daily walk through and make sure that at the end of the day the entire thing is on the ground never leave a structure standing unsafe, my recommendation is you rent a 15t machine at minimum you'll struggle with a 3t hoe and could end up seriously injured because you can't get far enough away from it and debris falling on you.

    Lol one time during a morning walk through I stumbled across a homeless man sleeping in the bathroom...... I don't know who scared who more. Sadly I have torn down several that we're being lived in by homeless people, hard to believe that in this day and age and even in our small town there is folks that way, I remember one inparticular there was a man woman and child living in a detached garage and it the entire property was city owned due to back taxes, there was about 10 houses involved in the bid so I left the garage until the last one and gave them a few days notice to move along......sorry for getting sidetracked

    Pj
     
  8. dirty4fun

    dirty4fun Senior Member

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    In our small town there isn't any set rule. I put up caution tape before I start, along the side walk. Then around everything at night. I tore one down that had been investigated so it had tape from the police department. I moved it and reused it, made a few people stay back better than the caution tape. Hope you have insurance, just in case someone gets hurt or something gets damaged next door. If there is no dirt, concrete or bricks in the load you should be able to fill the drop box level with out going over on the weight. Even if you do the charge might be less than having to have an extra drop box. I have used the same company quite a few times they work with me and average out all the loads. That helps and they forgive a little over weight ones.

    Last Friday I tore down a corn crib and a small shed. Started in the afternoon dug the hole, burned everything and had time to tear out some of the concrete before dark. It was pretty well burned up when I left. I salvaged 20 3 x 12 x 14' doug fir joist while tearing it down.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2013
  9. CM1995

    CM1995 Super Moderator

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    That is the same it is in my area. Residential demo doesn't require an asbestos survey but asbestos has to be remediated prior to demo, so unless it is a gov't or large corporate job, most res. demos are just done - only saying it is the way it happens and not giving advice one way or the other.

    I am not a licensed asbestos contractor either and don't want to be. It's labor extensive and there is a lot of competition. I exclude asbestos and hazardous material abatement from every demo contract I submit. We are geared to tear the building down and get rid of the debris.

    A 10 ton limit on a 30 is a good allowance. Usually the 30's I use have a 6 ton cap, which is fine as the over tonnage rate is reasonable being less than $20 per ton. A residential demo will average 6-9 tons per can for 30 yarders. The first ones will be on the lighter side and the last ones will be on the heavier side as you load out the "fines".

    The 10 ton limit will be the scaled weight at the landfill, less the weight of the truck and container empty when it crosses the scales, you should only be paying for debris disposed.

    For concrete haul off I use 5 CY of pour back to 1 tandem load of haul off. Meaning if you are tearing out a slab that would take 5 yards of concrete to pour, it would be 1 tandem load to haul off. You can get a lot of brick and block in a truck so I usually just estimate that the old fashioned way, off the back pocket.:D

    I am currently working on a 27,000 sf demo job that consists of 3 commercial buildings. They are mostly constructed of masonry and steel bar joists which throws the 1000SF = 100 cy out the window. Here in Alabama we can use concrete, asphalt, bricks and blocks as beneficial fill so I have a place to dump this material for a small price. The steel goes to the recycler and there is not much trash to take to the landfill. I had to break this one down to dump truck and machine time.

    I really like demo, it can be very rewarding at times and bite you in the ass in others. The best estimating tool for demo is experience, when you loose on one, you remember it going forward and include your experience in future bids.

    Best of luck with this project.:drinkup
     
  10. dirty4fun

    dirty4fun Senior Member

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    I really enjoy demo work, last Saturday we removed 250 - 300 yards of concrete in 8 hours. Had my excavator and a skid steer to load with a two single axle trucks the first half a day then a third truck came to help. Lucky they will take all the concrete I have along the road as the river keeps eating into it. Has to have no rebar sticking out thou.
     
  11. tmc_31

    tmc_31 Senior Member

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    Sports Lighting Contractor
    Location:
    Merkel, Tx
    Hey guys,

    Happy Thanksgiving all!! First let me say that I really appreciate having this forum and y'all to bounce ideas and questions off of. It is really great of you to share your experience with one who is new to the demo game.

    As my pricing seems very high compared to others I have seen, I am spending time trying to figure out why that is and where I can shave costs (I won't go into this without having a reasonable opportunity to make some money, I don't need the practice either). One area that seems overly expensive to me the the disposal costs. It seems that there are 2 companies that provide roll off services to the town where this demo is. The first one I checked with, I thought (and apparently so did at least one of you) was pretty high at $85/ton (all up price including delivery, rental, hauling and tipping fees). I checked with the other company, they were at $117/ton:eek:. The other thing that seems high is the cost of having fill dirt for the basement brought in. Well, I guess it is what it is.

    I checked with the landfill and and asked about asbestos issues. She said that she would have the landfill manager go out and look at the house to see if asbestos would be an issue or not and give me a call back (gotta love small towns).

    I checked around the area for a full sized (15 ton) excavator with a thumb and mostly what I am getting from the rental yards is they don't want to deliver one for a 1 or 2 day job. I guess I can't blame them for that. The best offer I got was a 15 tonner without thumb for $900/day and $800 delivery/pick-up. I think I am going to have a better chance finding a 5 ton machine with a thumb. A 5 tonner will fit on my trailer saving PU&D costs. If the house was not on a basement, I could do the whole job with my skid.

    Tim
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
  12. CM1995

    CM1995 Super Moderator

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    $85 a ton is high in my area but I refrain from comparing costs in different regions as costs do vary considerably.

    The less than $20 a ton I said above is any over tonnage over my 6 ton cap in a 30. My "all in" (delivery, can, transport, disposal, etc) tonnage rate is a little less than $60 per ton, for 6 ton in a 30. So $85 a ton is not that out of whack comparing it to my costs.
     
  13. tmc_31

    tmc_31 Senior Member

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    Sports Lighting Contractor
    Location:
    Merkel, Tx
    CM1995,

    Ha, the lady I spoke to at the second roll-off provider ( the higher priced one) said that the over tonnage rate was $85/ton. I really didn't catch what the first provider said about over tonnage rate, I will have to call her back and verify.

    Tim