Gainsborough Loading Shovel M.O.D.

[Ian coombs]

A convertible loader, that's got to pretty rare.

That’s the only time I’ve seen a cab off other than when they were swapped for the armoured cabs in Northern Ireland., Belize was the hottest place I’ve been, just humid oppressive heat.. I’m sure there’s worse..
I was remembering the AC 645 in Canada was different to ours, the wheels were smaller and I recall had water ballast in them that I’ve never seen before or after and the engine had a turbo I’m pretty sure.. think there is a photo earlier of it next to the Fiat Allis 745 we had on hire when we were returning all your gear to you..

 

[OzDozer]

MEL is Minimum Equipment List - it is a list which allows for the operation (takeoff) of an aircraft with inoperative equipment, subject to specified conditions.

Minimum Equipment List (MEL) | SKYbrary Aviation Safety

A minimum equipment list (MEL) is a list which provides for the operation of aircraft when particular equipment is inoperative (various restrictions may apply). The list is prepared by the Operator.

skybrary.aero

 

[Nige]

What’s a MEL?.

Minimum Equipment List. Minimum required for flight in other words.

 

[skyking1]

What other thread skyking?.

Aviation Fun
It might be fun read through for you.
There are so many pilots and aviation buffs here, I started a thread about it. I'll post up that accident that I witnessed and the ferry flight afterward.

 

[Ian coombs]

So is there any possibility that takeoff was legal?.

 

[OzDozer]

Highly unlikely in any Western, civilised country. An engine out at takeoff, even on a 4 engine aircraft is cause for aborting the takeoff, if takeoff decision speed (V1) hasn't been reached.
But if V1 has been exceeded and the aircraft is airborne and one engine has failed, that would normally mean a return to the airport (however, fuel may have to be burnt off or dumped to get down to maximum landing weight). But in 3rd world countries - anything goes.

Qantas had a spectacular loss of a Lockheed Super Constellation at Mauritius in 1960. Fully loaded for the trip to Australia, one engine failed in a highly destructive manner, just prior to V1.
Indecision by the Captain and a lack of communication between the crew and the engineer saw the takeoff abort delayed, and the Super Constellation failed to stop in time, ran off the end of the runway at high speed and crashed into a dirt bank, then fell into a low gully.

Everyone got off with minor injuries, although one person broke a leg when jumping out - however, with 10,000 gallons of high octane petrol in the tanks, it didn't take long for the Super Constellation to catch fire and burn right out.
The poor firefighting response didn't help, the Mauritius airport firefighting team wasn't equipped with fire trucks that could traverse rough terrain, so they failed in their efforts to put the fire out.

Crash of a Lockheed L-1049G Super Constellation in Port Louis | Bureau of Aircraft Accidents Archives

www.baaa-acro.com

 

[Welder Dave]

Interesting you mention indecision by the captain. I remember when the plane had to land on the Hudson River, the initial investigation said they should have been able to make it back to the airport. The problem was when they did a simulation of the event they already knew the outcome. They totally overlooked the fact that the crew had to go through a checklist of things when an engine(s) quits and try to get it restarted. Until this was brought to the investigators attention they were looking at serious charges or consequences for the captain and crew. I can't remember exactly but it was only a couple minutes of extra time the crew needed to vindicate their river landing. It made Sully a hero and rightfully so. I'm sure some less experienced pilots might not have had the same outcome.
This latest stuff with Boeing is really troubling. The plane that had the door plug blow out apparently had been in for some service work in Jan. that included the door plug and bolts were left out. The report was from an anonymous whistle-blower at Boeing who had access to the maintenance files. The investigation will be able to confirm this. It is amazing no one was sitting in the aisle the door plug blew off.

 

[skyking1]

Return to your departure airport after total power loss will rarely work out. It is a fools errand to try it, as you need to make a 270 and then a 90 to get lined up.
Those two turns burn up too much altitude.

 

[Welder Dave]

I think I saw it on Mayday or a show like it. It made no sense they were looking at pilot error in not returning to the airport. He saved everybody's life due to his experience. That should have been the focus. They knew there was a bird strike.

 

[Ian coombs]

Illegal was what I had thought.. but imagine the conversation.. about being stranded maybe a couple of hundred miles from home, knowing the fault probably wouldn’t be fixable for days maybe weeks, the aircraft is in the wrong country and it’s scheduled for another job in a few hours time.. or fly it home and the company engineer gets to work.. I suppose there must have been an ATC at Belize..as you said Ozdozer the difference between the first and third world..so how would you rate the pilot, surely had guts to take off on 3 engines..it was an unusual few minutes for me, maybe he’s still talking about it..

 

[Nige]

I would defer to the aviation experts but would have thought on a 4-engined aircraft there would be some way of making an unladen ferry flight using only 3 engines from a location where no maintenance facilities were available to one where the engine could be repaired/replaced ought to be permissible within the rules. I have no idea if that’s what they were doing or not.

 

[OzDozer]

The aircraft in Ian's photo is a Lockheed L-188A Electra, it was one of only two Electras in the Honduran Airlines (SAHSA) fleet.
The L-188A had plenty of power with 3,750HP from each Allison turboprop, so 15,000HP available for takeoff.

Even with one engine out, that still gives 11,250HP available, the pilot would just have to correct for assymetric thrust from the side with the powerplant out.
The Electra was noted for high performance in its day, so a takeoff on 3 engines could certainly be allowable under an MEL, if no maintenance facilities were available.

Unfortunately, the Electra had a patchy record for reliability, and that aircraft of SAHSA's was destroyed in a crash at Guatemala City on 8 January 1981, whilst on a ferry flight to Tegucigalpa for repairs.

The Electra (once again) took off with only three engines, and one of the electrical generators malfunctioning - but shortly after take off the plane lost hydraulic pressure and tried return to La Aurora International Airport, but the plane lost altitude and crashed into some houses one mile west of the Guatemala City airport, killing all 6 crew members on board.

Accident Lockheed L-188A Electra HR-SAW,

After the plane arrived at La Aurora with one engine shut down and one of the electrical generators malfunctioning, the crew decided to ferry the aircraft to Honduras for repairs. The pas...

aviation-safety.net

More information on the Honduran Airlines Electra fleet -

Lockheed L-188 Electra II in Honduras

The relationship of the Hondurans with aviation has been a long and fruitful one. As a matter of fact, the Hondurans can claim that the very first air service in Central America was established there in 1922, when Dr. T.C. Pounds, an oculist from New York, obtained a Mail contract from the Honduran

www.laahs.com

 

[Ian coombs]

That is devastating honestly.. I can’t say the exact date but it was late 1980 just before I demobbed from the Army.. brilliant that you could come up with all that info Ozdozer..but devastating.. I guess that was their normal..

 

[Ian coombs]

That last link was very interesting with all the history Ozdozer..
It’s amazing to me that one of the Electras was still flying commercially at the time of the article in2021.. probably not amazing to those of you who are involved with aircraft..

 

[Nige]

I guess that was their normal..

It still is in Latin America. Not a million miles SSE of where you were in Belize lies Villavicencio, Colombia. The spiritual home of the DC-3 in Latin America, mostly because it's still pretty much the only aircraft that can get into the bush landing strips in the Amazon rainforest of Southern Colombia on the border with Brazil.

 

[skyking1]

it is not a matter of what you can do, it is what you should be doing.
off he went no problems.
Now picture the same takeoff and the remaining engine on that side packs it in when he is a ways off the ground. There is no recovery for that.
When you fly a twin, there is enough rudder authority to handle the asymmetric thrust, but not two engines out there on one wing. It would go in upside down in a blink.
Another interesting thing to note is relative performance. You'd think, more engines, better performance with all running.
it is exactly the opposite.
The UK and US air transport rules are similar for certification. They require a transport category aircraft has a minimum climb performance with one engine failed and feathered, at Maximum TakeOff Weight (MTOW) and worst CG condition.
This is usually expressed in Ft/NM, so they can plan on being able to climb out and not hit terrain.
So what you have is enough engines +1 to miss the hills near the airport.
Twins have significantly better performance that the 3 holers like the 727, and that much better than the 4 engine planes. At heavy weights the 4 engine planes are relative pigs.

 

[Welder Dave]

Seem to recall some WW II bombers had made it back on 2 engines maybe even 1 if 2nd last engine died when they were close to home. My dad always preferred propeller planes to jets because they relied on wing span and air currents. A prop. plane could glide a lot longer than a jet in an emergency.

 

[skyking1]

What you can do when you are aloft and have no bombs is a far sight of what it is like staggering off the runway at gross.

 

[Welder Dave]

At gross I don't think they'd even think about trying to take off without all 4 engines. It wasn't mentioned if the Electra's were at max. loaded weight which could make a big difference.

 

[skyking1]

There's no freaking way they were loaded on the 3 engine takeoffs. Those were ferry flights to go get the engine fixed.