Frost

[Tradesman]

Yesterday I had to dig out a frozen septic tank, the top was down 30" and the sewage was frozen over half way down the tank. Likely 5 ft. Of frost .I would use the frost pick for a while then put the 16" bucket on and clean up and square the edges of the hole , I was scratched an inch into the top of the tank because the frost was as hard as the concrete and I could hardly tell the difference. The lid was frozen down so hard we couldn't even get it open with a half hour of heating it with a tiger torch or a hot water pressure washer, we finally drilled a three inch hole in the corner and I broke it loose with the frost pick.Sorry no pictures by the time I had the lid off I was just glad to be done and forgot to take any pictures
Tradesman

 

[bigshow]

Was the ground without snow and grass? It's common to see frost that deep in roadways and bare ground in the northeast. Generally with snow and sod cover the frost is less than a foot.

 

[Shimmy1]

The bigger question is what are they putting down that sewer? Septic tanks should not freeze with regular usage; the bacterial action creates heat that keeps everything moving. 30" is more than enough cover most places, I would be skeptical if it was for a shop (not alot of solid waste)and was out in the bare gravel, but if this had any vegetative cover at all it would bear further investigation.

 

[willie59]

My God, I'm glad we don't have to deal with frost like that down here. Where I live, my water meter is only about 16" in the ground.

 

[lantraxco]

Biggest surprise of my life was a trip to California, driving along looking at big buildings and there's this huge conglomeration of valves and water pipes and such sticking up in the air between the sidewalk and the building.... took me about a minute to figure out it was the main water line to the building, with double checks and such for backflow! Never seen one that wasn't buried in a vault before, LOL

 

[old-iron-habit]

My God, I'm glad we don't have to deal with frost like that down here. Where I live, my water meter is only about 16" in the ground.

The local underground utility contractors have been real busy around here this winter with extended cold and no snow cover. The frost was down to 7 ft in the street Thursday where they were chasing a broken city water line. We get more water mains cracked from frost moving them than we do from actually freezing and breaking. The pipe cracks usually reveal themselves up when a skating ring shows up in the street.

 

[willie59]

The local underground utility contractors have been real busy around here this winter with extended cold and no snow cover. The frost was down to 7 ft in the street Thursday where they were chasing a broken city water line. We get more water mains cracked from frost moving them than we do from actually freezing and breaking. The pipe cracks usually reveal themselves up when a skating ring shows up in the street.

Oh I'm well aware of the depth my northern neighbors must bury water lines and such because of the frost, yet it still amazes me as we just don't have to deal with that problem. My house was built somewhere in the 50's, and the sewer line leaving the home and going to the sewer main is 3" concrete tile, one of these days I'm going to replace that crap because it's notorious for getting roots in it which clogs the sewer line. It's about 100 ft of concrete tile, and quite frequently I have to run a snake in the line to knock out the root growth. I have a spot about midways in the line, knocked a hole in the top of the pipe, to run the snake both ways, that spot is only about 10 inches down in the ground.

 

[bigshow]

Our local municipalities are busy here as well, the water services are freezing underneath the road. The frost is said to be 5-6' in the roads, the yards only have a few inches. I was contacted last week by the local water board as they had 12 frozen services, they never had it this bad. I went up and met with them and suggested they get a hot water pressure washer and shove the hose up the frozen line, either from inside the home or dig up the curb box, split the lines and shove the hose up the line towards the street. The outside method was the one they chose, can't blame them, they would be liable for any water damage in the basements. I drove by yesterday to see how they were doing and they were making progress.

 

[Andrew_D]

I can relate. We're not as bad this winter as we were in 2013/14. Lines up to 12' deep (under the roads) were freezing last year.

Andrew

 

[tuney443]

Oh I'm well aware of the depth my northern neighbors must bury water lines and such because of the frost, yet it still amazes me as we just don't have to deal with that problem. My house was built somewhere in the 50's, and the sewer line leaving the home and going to the sewer main is 3" concrete tile, one of these days I'm going to replace that crap because it's notorious for getting roots in it which clogs the sewer line. It's about 100 ft of concrete tile, and quite frequently I have to run a snake in the line to knock out the root growth. I have a spot about midways in the line, knocked a hole in the top of the pipe, to run the snake both ways, that spot is only about 10 inches down in the ground.

willie,why don't you simply use copper sulphate in that undersized pipe until you replace it?

 

[Andrew_D]

Just remembered a line-freezing story from last year and had to post it!

So a small town to the SE of me had water line problems last winter, as did most towns around. The town crew was trying to run hot water lines down the pipes to thaw but they were having a devil of a time gaining any headway - hard pushing you see. At the same time, the crowd of "aged onlookers" was having quite a chuckle on the sidelines. Finally one of them spoke up. The story is that since this was the end of the street back in the 50's when the water system was put in, the contractor hooked up the last house and instead of cutting the 1" hose the correct length, he simply hooked each end of what was left on the roll to the house and street line, chucked the remaining roll in the hole and buried it. Fast forward 60 years and today's crew was trying to push the hot line around all these loops in the ground!

I don't know whether they gave up and waited for summer or whether they dug it up....

Andrew

 

[tuney443]

Great job security I have with a local trailer park regarding frozen and old patch upon patch water lines.I've seen them there with just 2.5' of cover.My plumbers and I have told them numerous times we could have replaced all the mains and services to bring it into compliance cheaper in the last 10 years than all these patch emergency gigs combined to now AND STILL COUNTING, and putting their tenants out of service.Must be a tax write off deal orrrrr---STUPIDITY!

 

[Andrew_D]

Great job security I have with a local trailer park regarding frozen and old patch upon patch water lines.I've seen them there with just 2.5' of cover.My plumbers and I have told them numerous times we could have replaced all the mains and services to bring it into compliance cheaper in the last 10 years than all these patch emergency gigs combined to now AND STILL COUNTING, and putting their tenants out of service.Must be a tax write off deal orrrrr---STUPIDITY!

You see that everywhere - both in government and private industry. Sometimes folks would rather spend $1,000 on 100 different occasions instead of $70,000 up front to solve a problem!

I get it that some of that has to do with cash flow, financing, etc, but it sure makes a guy shake his head!

Our province is spending millions putting passing lanes on sections of 2-lane highways (PTH16 + PTH10 for those that know MB) instead of biting the bullet and twinning. Their excuse is that the traffic isn't quite there to justify twinning. Hmmmm..... pretty sure it will be there 20 years from now! Parts of PTH10 are between our 2nd biggest city and our biggest federal park which does a huge tourist trade. Monday-Thursday traffic is nuts to begin with, but Friday-Sunday traffic in the summer is horrible.

Andrew

 

[tuney443]

Made me think of a REAL smart lawyer story.Years ago on huge subdivision site job,this lawyer who thought he could also play builder/developer would not listen to me to hire a D8 for app.a week b e c a u s e [wait for it] the owner wanted the going rate at the time--a whole $100 an hour,$800 for the day.Mr. Lawyer said he didn't want to spend more than $50 an hour.So I call up my friend with a D4 to see what he's getting--yup $50 an hour.So I introduce them to each other,deal is made.Hmmmmm,1 week at $100 per hr. vs.the 4 at $50 per hour.That 4 was there for 3 MONTHS!!!!!! I guess Mr. Lawyer failed a few math classes.