Front steering cylinders 570A

[rsherril]

Recently developed a leak out the ram end of my left front wheels steering cylinder. Have a weep in the other one so while I have time I plan on taking both in for repairs.
Noticed a recent comment from John C. that front steering cylinders on TLB's often could not be repaired. Why would this be?
My last cylinder repair job, (blade tilt), was a bit of a shock at $250+ for a rebuild kit plus labor. When I told the repair guy I had not expected that high of a bill and had two more to bring in, he sez to "prepare myself ".
Opinions, comments?

 

[Bls repair]

You know what they say ,if you what to play you have to pay

 

[JD955SC]

Recently developed a leak out the ram end of my left front wheels steering cylinder. Have a weep in the other one so while I have time I plan on taking both in for repairs.
Noticed a recent comment from John C. that front steering cylinders on TLB's often could not be repaired. Why would this be?
My last cylinder repair job, (blade tilt), was a bit of a shock at $250+ for a rebuild kit plus labor. When I told the repair guy I had not expected that high of a bill and had two more to bring in, he sez to "prepare myself ".
Opinions, comments?

Some cylinders (small ones) are built to where you can’t get them apart without destroying them. I don’t know why they do this but it is very frustrating.

The Snorkel lift my father used to have had one of these cylinders on it as the steering cylinder. I had to get a generic cheap cylinder from Northern Tool and cut off and reweld the boss in a different location to make it work.

 

[TVA]

Even if they reparable, this bing John Deere, it doesn’t have regular screw on gland, it has internal snap ring, and probably gonna require special removal plastic ring which should come in piston kit for some reason and not in a gland kit.

 

[Delmer]

I think JohnC's comment was that most steering cylinders are trashed by the time he sees them. Your grader cylinders might just have worn out the seals from age, so they should be rebuildable just fine.

Nothing complicated about it, if you got the tools and muscle to do it, we can tell you how and where to find the parts. If you take them in, you pay what you pay.

You won't find a kit for $50, but it should be less than $250 for both cylinder seals if you do it yourself.

 

[TVA]

The secret is to clean the groove really really good.

 

[Welder Dave]

$250 to repair a cylinder is cheap depending on what was done. Was it honed, polished and tested? I took my bucket cylinders in and they said they needed to be re-chromed. Didn't look or feel bad to me but were over $800 each and they aren't real big cylinders.

 

[TVA]

$250 to repair a cylinder is cheap depending on what was done. Was it honed, polished and tested? I took my bucket cylinders in and they said they needed to be re-chromed. Didn't look or feel bad to me but were
mover $800 each and they aren't real big cylinders.

ive seen many rods that definitely needed to be re chromed or replaced and had just new seals put in them and worked, for a while. Few dings on the rod can be careful ly filed and polished. If it looks like it was shot up by machine gun and rusting from underneath the chrome - it’s toast!

But usually you look at wiper seal, and if it’s in crumbles - the rod seal is the same way. Just age, temperature and chemical reaction, especially with moisture present and running hot.

Very often if it is not fixed in time, you have water in oil. Single action cylinder can have maul functioning check valve in the rod end and blow the seal.

 

[TVA]

If John Deere want ridiculously high prices, check out Hercules Sealing Products. They even have kits by model number, or cylinder number.

 

[mg2361]

gonna require special removal plastic ring

FYI, you can buy those plastic filler rings separately so you don't have to open a kit to disassemble a cylinder.

Also, a 570A originally had screw in type rod guides, not the snap ring style. If the cylinder has ever been replaced then it was replaced with the snap ring style (requiring the filler ring).

 

[TVA]

FYI, you can buy those plastic filler rings separately so you don't have to open a kit to disassemble a cylinder.


Also, a 570A originally had screw in type rod guides, not the snap ring style. If the cylinder has ever been replaced then it was replaced with the snap ring style (requiring the filler ring).

if it is screw in type gland - it is way better! Those filler rings are pain to deal with!

 

[rsherril]

Thanks guys. I can see where a backhoe might be prone to trashing steering cylinders. Mostly I'm sweating just getting it off the machine. Tight spot, lots of accumulated grease. I've got the front end blocked up high enough so I can take the wheel(s) off if needed. Retaining bolt is lined up for the left side attachment to the steering arm. Gunked it last night, will clean it best I can. I'm dealing with three hyd. lines as one connects to the other cylinder for fluid balancing purposes. I have caps for the lines to keep dirt out of the system.
I installed the blade tilt cylinder yesterday and learned abouting useing air pressure to adjust cylinder length. 35 psi moved it pretty fast and I'm glad I didn't have the other port pointed at my face. (yes I wear safety glasses, but...) I cracked the hoses before I started the machine up and slowly fed in new fluid intll the bubbles were gone. I was guessing a bug bubble going through the pump wasn't good, but maybe it goes to the sump first (?).
My fear is getting that steering arm bolt and cylinder ram end pin out. Required some punch work on the tilt cylinder due to age and it not being a greased pin. Plenty of grease on this one though, so I might be OK.
I do have all the manuels, so I've got a good idea how it goes together. Inspected the right side cylinder and I don't see any leaking, maybe a slight weep as I see grime where the ram comes out of the cylinder, but the rod is mostly dry.

If this part goes well then I'll be happy to pay the man as they are professionals and will do it right if it can be done.
I made a couple of calls to a mechanic they recommended for help with this, but he hasn't called back and I can see that he might just have better things to do and I don't blame him a bit. Thank you for your replies and I'll keep you posted.

 

[rsherril]

Cleaned up pretty well. Gunk beats degreaser. Had to use a flashlight and mirror to get to some of it. Noticed a grove worn in the line between cylinders . Guess I better take that in too. Started snowing and my fingers don't work so well in the cold so I quit for the day.
Have determined a proceedure. Begin wth pulling the retaining bolt on the hard to get to pin, drop the that pin first. Start the machine to retract the cylinder. Then go to the easy to get to outside pin, then reposition the steering arm for reassemblege, (after repairs made) using machine hydraulics BEFORE disconnecting hoses. The left side should be free moving then, but the right side is not. Looks like I'll need to get plugs for the hose ends.
Glad I got those wheels off the ground. Should put some support there just to avoid having to start the machine again. Currently supported by a screw jack, front scarifer and blade. Hasn't subsided in twentyfour hours, but more support on either side of screw jack can't hurt. Have a chunk of gluelam on the ground.
Might be a few days before I report back. Appreciate the comments, This has really made me think this out, I'll be checking back here for comments if any one sees a problem with my thinking or knows a better way.

 

[rsherril]

I went back to improve on my support and one thing led to another. Didn't all workout like I thought, but the cylinder is in the back of the truck. Will go in tomorrow with an apology for my outburst. I should be "good an Woke" now.

 

[rsherril]

Dropped the cylinder off today. Derk agreed that he had seen a lot of trashed steering cylinders from TBL's. Will call if that's the case for me. Got the bolts and pin off the mouldboard sideshift cylinder. This has been done in the past and put back together with Never Seize, so it came apart fine. Good stuff that Never Seize. Will try to get that long SOB off and in on Wed. Going to require some fore thought too as most of it is behind protection.
Concerning that black hole where that steering arm hides, I'm thinking now's the time to put on a grease zerk re location kit. Will stop by NAPA to see what they got.
Time for a hyd. oil change so I'll pick up filters tomorrow and a 5 gal.bucket of the expensive stuff that JD sells.

Question: After I get this buttoned up I'll be down a couple of gals. of hyd oil. Could I buy some cheap stuff and work the machine a little to flush out any dirt I may have introduced into the system before going through the complete filter and hyd. fluid change? I'm concerned about mixing hyd. fluids, but don't want to use the expensive stuff just to drain it again.
Will change tandem oil next and as it uses the same fluid, but doesn't have the same lub. requirements, will consider replacing it with old trans fluid instead of dumping it. Ran this by Nige some time ago, and he said maybe that could work OK. This is all part of the 500 hr. maintence that I'm doing before spring work starts. Thoughts?

 

[Delmer]

If this is just the hydraulics, not connected to the transmission, then I don't think you'll hurt anything mixing hydraulic fluid. How much is the tank capacity? you might get away with running it a couple gallons low just to get it warmed up, then changing the fluid. If it runs quiet, and the hydraulics work immediately and keep working with no noise or stuttering, then I'd run it five minutes, and drain it (if that's your plan, otherwise you could change the filter, run an SOS oil sample and make the decision based on the oil sample)

Using the old transmission fluid for the tandems, I don't see any problem if Nige doesn't, use a clean bucket, put a clean lid on it, let it settle for a day or a week, siphon it into the next compartment to leave the sludge on the bottom of the bucket. How much oil is there in the tandems? might not be worth it.

 

[rsherril]

This early JD graders were infamous for one sump fits all. What I"m discovering is that the cylinder oil is dirter than0 the transmission. Maybe because the oil there might not be recycled back to the transmission, just goes back and forth in the cylinder circuts for the most part (?). Draining the cylinders is not mentioned in the maintenance recomendations. Steering cylinders were small and have three ports each. One port on each side connects to the other side to balance out one cylinder extending when the other side contracts.
Pulled the side shift cylinder today. about About 50 inches of cylinder 54 inches of rod, maybe 2 inches dia. Fair amount of oil in it. Will go in tomorrow. Oil about the same color. So I seeing that the aux pump maintains the pressure using the tranmission sump to make up for any differences, which on average are fairly small. (Seems like I read that in the TM book, but it didn"t sink in ).
So the transmission sump capicity is around 5 gal. I've seen about 3 gal(?), come out of the cylinders so far. When I get it all back together I will srart it and bleed out the cylinders and deplete the sump accordingly. Won't be driving it around. Warm it up, work those cylinders and drain the transmission sump into a clean bucket. Replace the filters, (and temp sender also on the bottom of the transmisson if necessary). Refill that sucker and warm it up again and work the cylinders again then stop, rest, check again and work the machine some. Repeat as needed.
Tandem cases take about 5 gals each, Basically keeps the chain and wheel bearings lubed, the pivot has a grease zerk on the 200 hr maintanence program and maybe provides a barrier between transmission and chain case oil mixing.
Will go back to Deere and pick up another 5 gal. pail ($80). May re use some of old trans oil if it looks OK.

BTW spoke with the parts guy who went to Vegas for the Exposition and saw the 570 that was restored in 2016-17 to near new condition by two old guys from the Moline plant. I post this some time back and the Video is buried in one of the forums under "would you buy one of these now" or something like that.
Good night and thanks for the comments. Will keep this thread going if it dosen't go south like blading backasswards.

 

[rsherril]

Update. transmission / hydraulic system capicity 21 gal. Each tandem case 5 gal, Engine 10 qts. Cooling system 21 qts. Credit card limit 5K. Will be going back to the dealer to see my freinds after I drop off the the side shift cylinder to my other freinds. Wife thinks my friends may be using me. Will be looking for a Valetines Day suprise too. Any Suggestions?

 

[rsherril]

Will be installing rebuilt steering cylinder, (one of two), and 60 in. blade side shift cylinder today. My concern is bleeding air out in hydraulic lines and rebuilt cylinders. Previously on the rebuilt blade tilt cylinder I cracked the hose connection and gently worked the lever until the bubbles disappeared then tighten them. Seemed to work OK.

Now I'm looking at doing two cylinders, one rather long and the other tied in to the opposing steering cylinder. The lines going into the steering cylinder run through the frame and are a couple of feet higher and now have air in them.
I assume that the air will eventually work its way to the sump and dissipate, but want to reduce the air in the system as best I can first. I plan on a complete hyd. oil & filters change after everything is buttoned up and filled up.

Concerns include air moving through hoses, aux. pump, spools before getting to the sump, (transmission). I can reduce this somewhat by bleeding the cylinders as they refill, but that won't get all of it.
Thoughts or advice on this proceedure would be appreciated.
Thanks ahead.

 

[Delmer]

I've never bothered trying to let air out of hoses. You want to avoid compressing the air that's in the cylinders though. Run the machine at idle when you first start it up, keep two functions going at all times so you never build high pressure, slowly work the cylinders with air in them back and forth, starting with about half the stroke, then increasing to almost the full stroke trying not to bottom either end out until you've worked them back and forth several times.