Ford F650 V10 gas engine

[DMiller]

OBD2 was Automotive based for gasoline
Engines initially, i seriously doubt a IH dealer that does not sell a production gasoline engine since IH discontinued their production/use by mid 1980s in medium duty machines would have OBD2 equipment.

 

[oceanobob]

I contacted the sales rep for some popular software system sometimes mentioned on this forum and the rep indicated there was indeed some form of gizmo for around $8k that could handle the Ford 650 Gasser.

I dreamed up the idea to determine if Snap On could furnish this type of test and repair instrument and if so, who locally would have bought this type of tooling .... and bingo! got one place that also did mobile mechanic.

Said tool apparently was big dollar - but it reloaded some file and did some scans etc and then he started up the truck and it continued the analysis etc and then the light was cleared.
FIXED and now have the mechanic shop pretty local - no need to go 100 miles for a dealer.

Many thanks!

 

[Coaldust]

Wow. Good news and thanks for the update. All your footwork paid off.

 

[oceanobob]

Update: since 2021 event the Snap On tool and guru independent mechanic was called two more times for what were pretty quick repairs:
A) last year event - determined the battery was not quite maintaining the correct voltage (owner's bad, it was five plus years old, and nevertheless started the truck well) & the contacts to the comm bus in the wiring loom to parts were assembled dry with no special contact "goo", and
B) earlier this year same issue w the warning lights and this time it got a positive voltage jumper to help the OEM wiring harness deliver the power more suitably.

Last month, the red dash lights came on 'again' and the hair pulling has begun - Wabco unit not responding to any of the troubleshooting guidelines. And to further add worry to the situation, we have learned a well respected supply chain rebuild/reman shop gave up their opportunity to rebuild these units as they experienced way too many warranty claims. In this case, these rebuilt units do last past the warranty, but in the history of this truck (bought from the Penske fleet) this owner has had item repaired with a rebuilt unit at least twice.

Sidebar: Annual mileage is less than 5000 miles - all in town usage. Which is why they chose gas to avoid DPF issues the diesel engine would create. But a diesel would have air brakes .... hmm.

Looks like they will be going to buy a 'new' Wabco part instead of rebuilt for greater co$t but expected longer parts life. This one item is getting to be an achilles plus the added cost of a rental truck from Enterprise while this truck is in the shop.

Will add another update as I learn more.

 

[Old Doug]

It seems Ford tries alot of stuff out that isnt the best . They bought 2 Fords were i work that had Lucas Girling brakes and ran off propane they were a nightmare . I worked night and day getting them useable . Looking back i should have gotten alot more than i did for making them usable. There are alot of deals that have gone on with trucks over the years that makes you think why ?

 

[mekanik]

Here is the link to the manual for the HPB brake system.

https://www.zf.com/products/media/automotive/cv/literature_downloads_wna/truck_solutions/hydraulic_power_brake_maintenance_manuals/MM0401_web.pdf

The unit has two 30 amp power supplies and two grounds Make sure they load test the power supplies and grounds. Just because the power supplies will light a test light does not mean they are good. I use a headlight with a H4 80/100 watt bulb and use both filaments. That is 180 watts so 15 amps.
Two customers this year so far came to our shop wanting to buy a new ABS unit. When they found out the price they went back with my headlight and properly load tested the power supplies and found there was a connectivity problem and there was nothing wrong with the unit.

If you scan the HPB system with the factory software it first scans for J1939 devices and does not find any then it scans and finds the hydraulic unit on the unit on the J1587 data link.

If the unit does need to be replaced you will need the parameter file from the old unit as it has to be downloaded into the new unit. You can get the parameter file from Ford but it might be a challange finding someone that knows where to find it.

 

[oceanobob]

We have the truck in the shop where it remains while we spend money on a rental unit .... in this particular case, using the SnapOn test unit and some other tools which allow the mechanic to determine the pressure sensor has gone haywire but this is not a replaceable part.

We have put two rebuilt units into the truck -these are about $3k each plus the install. They have broken shortly after the one year warranty. A little bird informed us about a fairly large truck part rebuilder who gave up the Wabco product line as to it being too much of a hassle and warranty call backs etc etc.

We had the bright idea to get a new unit instead of rebuilt: $10k from dealer, $8k aftermarket but these are on "backorder".

**To Mekanik: Thank you for the suggestion to load test the circuit ... is a really good idea. But this time is the sensor.

Just wanted to update the status for this forum entry. Really do appreciate the assistance.

Seems as though this system is problematic and the folks w schoolbuses arent pleased either.

 

[oceanobob]

During the last coupla months, the repair shop has run out of options in the supply chain to replace the unit with a new one, or another 'rebuilt' one. The owner settled up for the diagnostic effort and the battery was dead (due to sitting for so long)....

At this point they will take the truck back to their business - with no warning buzzer but a icon on the dash indicating 'brake'.

The pedal response is excellent in all the test modes, and to recap the story: the mechanic's test instrument reports a bad pressure sensor in the unit - but no individual repair parts are authorized or available. This explains the warning light. Indeed, one can postulate if another problem manifests, then how to determine - etc etc.

The truck owner will likely commission one of their staff to commence a search high and low for a unit. Wrecking yard may be the last resort - yikes. My intitial searches using google showed two places listing the item, but it was backordered in both website locations.

The Ford OEM situation for these trucks designates only certain dealer locations as a commercial truck center and one of the closest is 150 miles away. The repair shop contacted the place by phone and email and got no response, followup yielded nothing and then one new worker to the parts place thought the system indicated the OEM parts book (their data base) had a code for the part ~ which meant obsoleted. Possibly it is as simple as a new number replace it, but that is a hopeful wish.

Summary: cost of three or four replacement events with this part and the rental cost, has exceeded the amount they paid initially for this truck out of the Leasing Company fleet. Granted inflation alters this calculation and there has been a lot of that lately.

The usual big place (wholesale upstream) that rebuilds these items dropped this product line entirely cause they were repairing them and tested them sat but they wouldnt last the one year warranty period and they couldnt get reimbused from Wabco - so they didnt renew their contract for the rebuilder task.

The only rock left to lift is the one where they can find a replacement part.
2015 Ford F650 Brake Hydraulic Compact Unit with ECU. (Looks like a big block of aluminum with two pressure domes and some gizmo's attached to the surface of the block).

At first glance the contrivance seems like a novel idea - ABS, contingency brake hydraulic power, power boost etc etc all in the unit and out of the engine compartment....then realization occurs.

Not happy posting all this sordid news on the forum - like it a lot better where we can all review a Solution.

 

[mekanik]

What became of the original hydraulic compact unit the one with the rusted accumulator? The accumulators are a serviceable part. Getting new ones might be a problem though.

 

[Coaldust]

What’s the part number for the assembly?
Are we talking about the 9C4Z2X405D, with ECU version 8 ?

 

[DMiller]

Ford was notorious for a Not in the Parts Guides Diodes on the brake systems as these. Appear as a Bullet Style Connector only with a large Plasticized Rubber body inline in wiring, M/F plugs at either end. Found this on older 700s and 800s that retained the Hydraulic braking systems.

Check the harnesses to the brake components. Sorry do not have a sample or photo.

 

[oceanobob]

The core charge is no small amount - every repair the shop returned the core - which we didnt mind cause we thought no use to try and fix an item that has no repair parts available.

Have heard this "non (end user) repairable part" story has occurred on other vehicles.

Also interesting thought: What will happen at the dealer - what category of part will we get?

Why do I ask this: cause I am surmising the core will be required to be returned although the part may be represented as new (have had this happen on parts for other vehicles -not common but did happen). In those cases, the counter person had no real idea as to why.

The part could be represented as 'new' simply for the reason that most parts out of that source are indeed 'new': ergo it is out of the Ford Company parts book - but that doesnt mean that Wabco and Ford complete the supply using Wabco rebuilds. Cause if there are no parts the vehicles value is scrap, and that would not make owners happy.

Thats one hand of 'downside what iffing'. This truck owner could be spending funds for the transport to the shop and a higher parts price and get the same thing otherwise that a local independent shop can accomplish.

The other side is maybe (hope LOLOL) just maybe, the part is a 'better rebuild' cause the specs tween Ford and Wabco are stricter....and another hope is the part could be upgraded (a will fit part with improvements).

~~~
I have discussed this parts performance / reliability issue with some shop owner mechanics - and they basically say 'yes the dealer sourced parts are more costly ~ but they prolly are (statistically) a better quality'. Things I have read in trade publications state the dealer supplied OEM parts are at their best as long as that part still fits something on the vehicle assembly line; once the item is no longer supplied there due to model changes etc, then the value process begins. And have met folks who actually worked at a local (now closed) wholesale upstream starter alternator rebuild center and the part was excellently beautified but with as little replacement parts added ~ then sold as 'rebuilt' all day every day.

Then of course are the improved aftermarket parts.

As the vehicle owner - puzzle over how this is to be determined in this particular case.

Slot machine time.
Coin flip.

Will keep this updated - as next week the truck heads to the OEM dealers shop.
Many thanks to all ye for the assistance.
Maybe will be able to get clarity as to the part number situation if I also go to the dealership as someone must ferry the driver back home.

 

[oceanobob]

The closest Ford Commercial Truck dealer and repair center is about 130 miles away.....we contacted, made an appointment, and sent an email with pics and a summary of the issue and asked for a brand new unit sourced thru Ford Parts system. "Throwing bigger money at it" because - just maybe - the units we had replaced with reman units simply had inherent long term reliability issues.

The dealer's service writer, the parts guru, the technician mechanic called and during the conference call they reported unfortunately they had no source for a new part or even a reman part from or through Ford; per that dealer's policy they normally source all their parts through the OEM ~ but they would try to find something from an aftermarket supplier. I thanked them profusely for corroborating and saving us the trip for no result and their time would also not have been used efficiently.

Getting desparate, I next wrote an email to Wabco ZF (Keep in mind this is a 2015 and Wabco departed Meritor in 2017 and around 2020 became associated w ZF) and nevertheless they kindly supplied information:
a part number for a New Unit and
a part number for a Service Exchange unit (whatever is that?) and
a part number for a Reman unit.

Now looking for the new part ....... will advise on next steps.

 

[oceanobob]

To the above inquiry (post #30) about the part number from Wabco:
400 851 876 0 (new)
400 851 876 7 (Service Exchange)
400 851 876 x (Reman)

 

[Coaldust]

About $ six large. Ouch.

 

[mekanik]

I believe new ones are available through an International dealer.

 

[Truck Shop]

Actually this is the problem with want to be trucks. It's nothing more than a car with a bed and not enough dealers and parts to
support the full line of what they build. Trucks of this size are in no mans land, too big to fit in most parking spots and too small to
really do anything. Parts by dealer only has to be supported for 12 years. Large trucks support can run 20 to 25 years.

Still the same---three years later.

 

[Truck Shop]

There was a very good reason Meritor dumped Wabco, but that's for future class 8 threads.

 

[Coaldust]

Looks like my NAPA Traction guy can pull one from the Seattle DC.

I’ve mentioned it before, when I was with big oil, the cost per mile to operate a medium duty Ford was the same as a KW T370 or Freightliner M2 with a single axle.

With the added benefit nobody wants to work on the Ford when they breakdown.

 

[Truck Shop]

Looks like my NAPA Traction guy can pull one from the Seattle DC.

I’ve mentioned it before, when I was with big oil, the cost per mile to operate a medium duty Ford was the same as a KW T370 or Freightliner M2 with a single axle.

With the added benefit nobody wants to work on the Ford when they breakdown.

That's a fact Jack.