Fiat Allis 14C questions..........???

[JDDozerman]

As you all know I just purchased my Fiat Allis 14C dozer, I really like it a lot, it's in great shape, has been very well cared for, and is working out great for me, but I would like to try and find out more about the "history" of these 14C's, if any of you could "enlighten me", I would really appreciate it!!! When I was researching "dozers", I couldn't find much of anything on the "track record" of these 14C's, mainly I just found the basic "specs", and "general" information, about them, which at least gave me enough to go on to make my decision to purchase it, along with the deal I got on it, I figured I almost couldn't go wrong!

What I'm really seeking to find out are things such as, the background of the 8205 motor, i.e. how does the 8205 motor "stack up" compared to similar size motors of other brands? Likewise, how do the other components, such as the transmission, steering clutches, brakes, etc., "stack up" as well? Also, I could never find out about any "short comings", or "weak points", that it may have, and I'm sure EVERY machine has at least 1 "weak point", or "drawback", so I'm wondering what it might be for the 14C? Just any information regarding its "history", would be great! I researched all over the internet, and just can't find much about the background of these 14C's, other than the usual, i.e. what years they were built, what motor it has, etc., but nothing about how well it was built, how it compared to other makes, or any weakness', or what have you. Being as I want to continue to keep my dozer in good shape, if I could find out this information, it could possibly really help me to know what things to "watch out for", what to avoid, what to pay extra attention to, etc., IF you follow where I'm drifting!?!?! At any rate, I'm really hoping you all can help me out here, IF not, I really appreciate you even taking the time to read this!

As always, thank you kindly for your time, and consideration!
JD Dozerman

 

[02Dmax]

Those old Fiats are really a pretty good machine. A company I used to work for had all Fiat stuff from 14s to 10's to 145s, 175s, and even a 255. I've said before that there's actually alot of good equipment out there but what finally killed Fiat around here was parts got completely out of sight expensive or unavailable all-together. Not to mention they haven't built them for over 10 years I think. Fiats turned into New Hollands which actually are a huge piece of junk. They'll have typical dozer problems if you run them enough, fluids transffering from a bad seal, steering clutches going out, etc. We used to put almost 2000 hrs a year on ours which is a ton in NW MO and rarely had problems. Had a 14 that broke an oil control ring at 8k hours, didn't hurt anything just lost oil pressure, had another 14E (early version of 145) that we found a bearing cage while changing oil in tranny, ran and shifted fine, ran it another 2k hours and traded it.

 

[OzDozer]

JDDozerman - You won't find a great deal about Fiat-Allis's anywhere on the web, because no-one is particularly concerned about their "history" or lineage, unlike the top selling U.S. makes.
The 8205 engine is an Iveco engine. Iveco was formed in 1975 by the merger of 5 Italian, French & German industrial companies.

Here is the Iveco history - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iveco

The Iveco engines are not a bad engine, but parts are usually expensive for them. They are reliable enough, but you'll find service and parts supply becoming harder to find as the years go by.
European manufacturers have a habit of indulging in mergers, restructuring, and selling of companies, until you struggle to track the history of the manufacturer of the item you own. Language difficulties make the problem worse.

Fiat have a large number of manufacturing divisions, they are truly a major manufacturing conglomerate. In 1974, the Allis-Chalmers Construction Division, which built A-C crawlers and other earthmoving lines, was suffering from sales deterioration that was so severe, they were basically unable to continue as a manufacturing operation. A-C made a decision to merge earthmoving manufacturing with Fiat S.p.A. of Italy, in a Joint Venture company, entitled Fiat-Allis, where Fiat owned 65% of the stock and A-C owned 35%. Fiat held options to purchase the A-C share of the JV company.

All A-C and Fiat tractors and earthmover product lines were immediately renamed "Fiat-Allis" under the new JV company. Over the following 7 or 8 year period, "product rationalisation" saw most A-C products dropped in favour of Fiat product lines. Where A-C products were kept, they were re-engineered along Fiat lines and repowered with European engines.
The JV company was renamed FiatAllis in 1982. On December 31, 1995, A-C sold its remaining shares in FiatAllis to Fiat and thus Fiat became the 100% owner of FiatAllis.

The 14C tractor traces it's origins back to about the late 1960's, when the Fiat AD14 and BD14 were released ("A" for Angle Blade, "B" for Bull Blade). This tractor was a 100% Fiat design tractor, with a Fiat engine.
The tractor was revamped and upgraded to the AD/BD14B, then 14C (when the Iveco engine was fitted). In Europe it's still referred to as a BD14C, although the ID tag just says "14C".

The Fiat tractors weren't a bad tractor, they were designed using a lot of Cat ideas, and they were reasonably reliable on average. They have their "quirks" and the worst quirk of the earlier Fiat crawlers was the use of all fine-thread fasteners, which are a nightmare when it comes to repairs. I'm not sure if the 14C has all, or the majority of fasteners, as coarse-thread fasteners, but I would hope so!

 

[JDDozerman]

Thank you both for the info, I really like my 14C, and I had done enough research, and drove it enough, to realize that it would work great for my situation, especially at the price I got it for! I was just wanting to try and find out a bit more about their "background", and "history", which you have both reaffirmed what I found on the "net", that there just isn't much "history" to be found, but I now have a better understanding of why there isn't. It seems like a shame, because at least in my case, I think this dozer is quite an excellent machine, and I have found enough parts suppliers, plus the fact that it is in such good condition now, that I feel I can keep it running for a long time, as long as I don't do foolish things with it! Anyhow, thanks again for your time, and information, I'm still very glad I decided to purchase this dozer!

JD Dozerman

 

[Queenslander]

Looks like you have a nice machine there JD. With low hours and new trackgear, you should have many hours of happy dozing ahead of you.
We have a 1979 model, which would have to be one of the earliest Cs, yours would be one of the last before the FD14D came along.
Their weak point would probably be the final drives, they have a habit of knocking teeth off the bull gear.
Apart from that they are an easy and enjoyable tractor to operate, I think the seating position is more comfortable than my favorite lounge chair.
Most parts are still available here at tolerable prices but big ticket items ,such as final drive gears, are expensive.
Still, if you're not doing huge hours they are an economical machine to keep running.
Cheers, Greg

 

[hd16b]

You have a good looking 14c,hope you have good service with it.Now the history of the 14c. I live in eastern nc ,greenville,and there was a allis chamlers dealer here named ef craven that had been in bussiness since the horse drawn buggies days and in the early seventies when eaveryone was clearing land there were hd11s everywhere. Well when fiat bought ac they evendently thought there 14c was a better tractor than the hd11 and started selling the 14c. What a mistake. They would not stay together.My father was good friends with severval of the mechaics and the owner and all said the problem was the transmisson. That one tractor almost run the dealer to the ground. You can give me a call at 252 916 2927 and i can elaborate.

 

[JDDozerman]

Thank you Queenslander, and hd16b, I really appreciate any, and all, info I can get, and I think I will do just fine with my 14C, since I will mainly be using it just on my farm, and a couple neighbor's farms. I seriously doubt I will put more than a couple hundred hours a year on it, at the very most. I also already have 2 pond jobs, and 1 clearing/leveling job, for neighbors that will bring me more $$$ than I paid for the dozer, both are about 1/2 acre ponds, which around here anyway, have been running around $10,000.00 per pond! That still seems high to me, but I have seen 3 new ponds within a 5 miles of me that are all about 1/2 acre in size (and not deep, as they are for cattle to drink from), and each one cost $10-12,000.00, so the owners told me! Anyhow, I really like the machine, and I can't beat the condition it's in, and I couldn't touch another comperable size machine, in similar condition, for anywhere near what I paid for mine! Only time will tell, but thus far I'm certainly VERY happy with my purchase, and I can't wait for the weather to clear up again so I can get back to workin' it!!! @ Queenslander, I completely agree with you, regarding how comfortable, and easy it is, to operate, I'm kind of a big guy, at 6'3'', and with my disability (crushed legs and lower back, which has left me with weak legs, and a fused lower back), I have been VERY comfortable sitting on it, and the pedals have been a breeze for me to operate! The only thing I'm considering doing is mounting a couple of mirrors on each side of the ROPS, so I don't have to turn around quite as much, has anyone else tried this? I think the new "cabbed Cats" come with rear view mirrors, but I haven't seen any on machines similar to mine. Thanks again to everyone, and I will TRY to post some pics as I get them, right now I'm having a WAR with my computer, since it won't load up any pics at the moment, but I'm trying to figure out what the problem is. I hope everyone has a GREAT Holiday Season!!!

JD Dozerman

 

[terryr]

14-C Fiat allis

Thank you Queenslander, and hd16b, I really appreciate any, and all, info I can get, and I think I will do just fine with my 14C, since I will mainly be using it just on my farm, and a couple neighbor's farms. I seriously doubt I will put more than a couple hundred hours a year on it, at the very most. I also already have 2 pond jobs, and 1 clearing/leveling job, for neighbors that will bring me more $$$ than I paid for the dozer, both are about 1/2 acre ponds, which around here anyway, have been running around $10,000.00 per pond! That still seems high to me, but I have seen 3 new ponds within a 5 miles of me that are all about 1/2 acre in size (and not deep, as they are for cattle to drink from), and each one cost $10-12,000.00, so the owners told me! Anyhow, I really like the machine, and I can't beat the condition it's in, and I couldn't touch another comperable size machine, in similar condition, for anywhere near what I paid for mine! Only time will tell, but thus far I'm certainly VERY happy with my purchase, and I can't wait for the weather to clear up again so I can get back to workin' it!!! @ Queenslander, I completely agree with you, regarding how comfortable, and easy it is, to operate, I'm kind of a big guy, at 6'3'', and with my disability (crushed legs and lower back, which has left me with weak legs, and a fused lower back), I have been VERY comfortable sitting on it, and the pedals have been a breeze for me to operate! The only thing I'm considering doing is mounting a couple of mirrors on each side of the ROPS, so I don't have to turn around quite as much, has anyone else tried this? I think the new "cabbed Cats" come with rear view mirrors, but I haven't seen any on machines similar to mine. Thanks again to everyone, and I will TRY to post some pics as I get them, right now I'm having a WAR with my computer, since it won't load up any pics at the moment, but I'm trying to figure out what the problem is. I hope everyone has a GREAT Holiday Season!!!

JD Dozerman

yes I have a 1985 F/A 14-C and lastyear I bought a 1974 21-B,the 14-C was to compete with cats D6D if you set them side by side they are pretty much the same tractor, the engine parts are expensive and getting harder to come by the first thing I would do is get rid of that small pipe and muffler I had something in the muffler come apart and torched the pistons wish i could add a picture other than that the 14s been a great cat, now does anyone know of a 21-B being parted out I need a few small items like tilt handle cover and linkage this was gone when i bought the cat and am tired of a pipe to do the job thanks you know at one time it was cat#1 and Fiat Allis #2 in the heavy construction world,and now all my parts are CNH Case New Holland,best wishes boys this old miner is going to bed Terryr

 

[Nodnarbtruk]

Any chance you could fax/email me a couple pages from your service manual, have a 14c trying to remove track adjuster and can't find a manual.

 

[terryr]

14 c

Any chance you could fax/email me a couple pages from your service manual, have a 14c trying to remove track adjuster and can't find a manual.

you have to break the track apart going to have to do this from the parts book have done this twice ,find your master pin heat and remove it lay the trac out ,front idle will roll forward out of the way leave on rail , remove metal cover that protects the adjuster and spring assm , there are 4 large bolts going straight down remove them and should be able to pry up the assmbly , four bolts and cover to get to the trac adjuster seals , DONOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES REMOVE THE LARGE HOLDER NUT FOR THE SPRINGS !!!!! UNLESS YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TOOLS FOR THIS ? IS IT THE SEALS ? so it wont hold adjustment ? or broken spring ? i need to know , the bore in my agjuster was so pitted i had to have a machine shop over bore the hole and sleeve it , my shop manual is out at the mine , only thing here is my parts book , let me know on some of these question i may be able to help , ... Terry SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY !!!!! IF YOUR JUST DOING THE SEALS YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO LIFT THE FRONT OF ASSM , ENOUGH TO GET THE ADJUSTER PISTON OUT AND RESEAL IT , i hope this helps i've been running my 14C with a broken spring for years doesnt seam to hurt anything ? check the seal bore for pitting and rust may be able to hone it ,

 

[terryr]

14c TRAC ADJUSTER

you have to break the track apart going to have to do this from the parts book have done this twice ,find your master pin heat and remove it lay the trac out ,front idle will roll forward out of the way leave on rail , remove metal cover that protects the adjuster and spring assm , there are 4 large bolts going straight down remove them and should be able to pry up the assmbly , four bolts and cover to get to the trac adjuster seals , DONOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES REMOVE THE LARGE HOLDER NUT FOR THE SPRINGS !!!!! UNLESS YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TOOLS FOR THIS ? IS IT THE SEALS ? so it wont hold adjustment ? or broken spring ? i need to know , the bore in my agjuster was so pitted i had to have a machine shop over bore the hole and sleeve it , my shop manual is out at the mine , only thing here is my parts book , let me know on some of these question i may be able to help , ... Terry SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY !!!!! IF YOUR JUST DOING THE SEALS YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO LIFT THE FRONT OF ASSM , ENOUGH TO GET THE ADJUSTER PISTON OUT AND RESEAL IT , i hope this helps i've been running my 14C with a broken spring for years doesnt seam to hurt anything ? check the seal bore for pitting and rust may be able to hone it ,

ANYOTHER QUESTIONS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ASK , HAVE HAD MY ENGINE OUT 2 TIMES AND lots of other work on it , engins and tracs are the two worst ....

 

[terryr]

all these where Allis Chalmers untill 1975 when Fiat bought into them , have a 21B with all nomenclature is Allis Chalmers and stickers are Fiat Allis , HD 21 B with cab and ripper rolls the scales at 90,000 lbs , just thought i'd mention , Terry

 

[Nodnarbtruk]

Just the seals leaking , won't hold adjustment. The 4 bolts straight down look to me to be holding the other end of the spring.

 

[Nodnarbtruk]

 

[terryr]

do you have a parts book ? its been 10 years ago i did mine think i hahd to pull the whole asm out and front support i think was in the way of getting the seals out ,seal # inner 596105 ,and are you going to do the outers to ? scanner is inop or id send the parts page , the spring is part of the cross holder bar it has a large ros throughthe middl to tighten the springs , remember my note donot release the spring , the seal your after is in the grease fitting housing cross bar and spring assembly one unit and very heavy , be here for you , its not a nice job ,

 

[terryr]

what year is this ? is this an hd 14 ?

 

[Queenslander]

Nordnarbtruk,
If you can wait a couple of hours, I should be able to PM you a couple of pages out of the service manual.
You do, in fact, have to remove the big nut first.
The tension of the spring, at the moment, is being held in check by those four bolts at the front, two dowels underneath and the support at the rear.
The nut needs to be removed as well as the sleeve behind it.
Put heaps of neverseize on the thread, reinstall the nut and tighten it to compress the spring until it comes away from the support.
You will need a 1" drive socket for this.
Should be much clearer when you see the manual
Cheers, Greg

 

[terryr]

nordnarbtruk,
if you can wait a couple of hours, i should be able to pm you a couple of pages out of the service manual.
You do, in fact, have to remove the big nut first.
The tension of the spring, at the moment, is being held in check by those four bolts at the front, two dowels underneath and the support at the rear.
The nut needs to be removed as well as the sleeve behind it.
Put heaps of neverseize on the thread, reinstall the nut and tighten it to compress the spring until it comes away from the support.
You will need a 1" drive socket for this.
Should be much clearer when you see the manual
cheers, greg

do not take the big spring nut off ! It just sits in it holder the four bolt in fron is on t dowel and the whole thing removes , the seals are in the front of the assembly . .....

 

[terryr]

NOT ON MY 14c ITS ALL ONE UNIT AND ITS A 1985 MODEL YEAR !

 

[Nodnarbtruk]

Mine is a 1987. Thinking I need to tighten the nut to compress the spring but things seem to be seized. I think it all needs to come out. Can wait, hoping someone has a manual. Tried to find one to buy but can't find any.