Engine Removal

[sled dog]

Michael, sorry about the mangled parts. We've all done some sketchy $hit working in the field. However, ALL that matters is that you were not hurt, and you have all your fingers and toes. Iron can be replaced, people not so much...

 

[Dave Neubert]

Are you using the original flywheel or did one come on the replacement engine

 

[Check Break]

You need to check your shuttle input shaft. Pull the pump off the oil divider and look at the outer splines on the input shaft. What does the stator inside the converter look like. Are the internal splines in the stator damaged. Does it look like the converter is seating all the way in on the input shaft???

 

[Michael Caravaglia]

Gentleman, I have two questions.

1) I assume when I install the Torque Converter, I do not need to re-fill with oil? I believe the oil gets replenished from the Transmission pump; is that correct, or should I be adding oil before reinstalling? My shop manual says nothing about adding oil on installation.

2) In regard to the run-out on the Converter, it is exceeding .020". I have rotated the whole assembly (Converter with flex-plate) on the flywheel, but it's still too high. Should I try rotating the flex-plate position on the converter too?

 

[sled dog]

Michael, on my hoe this summer when I resealed my converter, I prefilled with oil. I know the pump will fill it, but I wanted some lubrication on start up.

 

[Tinkerer]

I always put some in them. Don't fill it full tho !
Can you update us as to what you did to get engine bolted up to the convertor housing ?
It did slide together easily right ?

 

[Tinkerer]

Flex-plates are shimmed with special shim washers to get the proper setting.
Do you have the service manual for your machine ?
The procedure should be in it.

 

[Michael Caravaglia]

Are you using the original flywheel or did one come on the replacement engine

I replaced the flywheel just this summer, so it's the same.

 

[Michael Caravaglia]

You need to check your shuttle input shaft. Pull the pump off the oil divider and look at the outer splines on the input shaft. What does the stator inside the converter look like. Are the internal splines in the stator damaged. Does it look like the converter is seating all the way in on the input shaft???

The pump was replaced just this past summer and the tractor went back together just fine. The converter seems to be seated just fine. It's quite perplexing.

 

[Michael Caravaglia]

Flex-plates are shimmed with special shim washers to get the proper setting.
Do you have the service manual for your machine ?
The procedure should be in it.

I do have the service manual and, interestingly enough, there is no mention anywhere of checking/adjusting the torque converter run-out at all. In fact, there's not even a spec listed.

With the rebuilt converter came an instruction sheet on how to check the run-out. There are absolutely no shims on the flex-plate for adjustment and the instruction sheet simply calls for rotating the flex-plate position on the flywheel until run-out is less than .010". This is now the 3rd flex-plate I've worked with and none had shims.

 

[Michael Caravaglia]

Sorry I didn't respond to everyone earlier. I usually get an email when someone responds to a post. Not this time, so I assumed everyone went silent. Thanks for still being here!

After changing the converter once already this summer, I didn't expect the problems I'm running into now. Things went relatively smoothly last time, considering it was my first experience doing this. This time I seem to be having nothing but problems.

Getting the new engine ready and secured to the front of the tractor went well and quickly, then the trouble began and I couldn't get the engine bolted back to the transmission without locking up the converter/flywheel assembly.

What I failed to mention last time (due to my embarrassment) was that when I pulled the tractor back apart, the engine slipped off the floor jack I've been rolling it around on and the back end of the engine tipped backwards and smacked the torque converter onto the transmission housing destroying the replacement torque converter and flex-plate I had just installed some weeks prior. Ouch, what an expensive lesson.

Last week I received a new (rebuilt) converter and a new flex-plate. I've now spent hours, over the course of days, trying to get the run-out of the converter within spec of .010".

The run-out of the transmission-side crankshaft and the flywheel is excellent, less than .0005". However, once I bolted the converter/flex-plate assembly onto flywheel, the run-out was at .018" and that's the best I've been able to get. I've rotated the converter/flex-plate eight times, once for each bolt location, and my first position at .018" was the best. I then removed the flex-plate from the converter and rotatated the flex-plate position on the converter 180 degrees, put it all back together on the flywheel and the run-out is even worse.

Finally, I took it all apart again and just bolted the flex-plate onto the flywheel, with no converter attached, and the run-out closest to the eight bolt-holes is .026", horrible! How can I ever get the boss-hub of the converter below .010" when the flex-plate is this far off? Yesterday I left a message with Broken Tractor.com, who sold me the flex-plate, asking them about this. I haven't heard back yet.

Stay tuned.

 

[Tinkerer]

Micheal;
Don't beat yourself up over dropping the engine. Most of us have had small disasters similar to yours !
Do whatever it requires to get that flex plate set correctly. It has to be right or it won't last very long.
Check to see if you are still watching this thread. Go to the top of the page and check your settings.

 

[Michael Caravaglia]

I'm seeing online I can buy a shim pack. Small pieces of steel that range from 1/2 a thousandths of an inch, up to 3/100th's for about $50. This would enable me to make shims at whatever size I'd need to get the converter into spec. Any thoughts on this?

AND, if I were to do this, do you think it best to shim the 8 bolts that secure the converter to the flywheel; or, to shim the 6 bolts that hold the flex-plate onto the converter? OMG.

Am I over thinking this?

 

[Check Break]

Just work with what you have to get to your .010 spec. What's going to happen when the shim cracks and comes out and the bolts loosens up. You can remove a little metal (and I mean a little) easier and safer than you can add a shim.

 

[Tinkerer]

After rereading your problem with the torque convertor run-out I am confused.
I always thought torque convertor run-out is how much the hub of the convertor wobbles as it is rotated one full revolution. It is measured with a dial indicator set against the hub.
The is no way that I know of that the flex plate has anything to do with convertor run out. Perhaps I am wrong.
How much can you move the torque convertor from as far back into the transmission as it will go, then pry it forward until it contacts the flex-plate.
That is a critical distance and may be what destroyed the old motor because it was too tight.

 

[Michael Caravaglia]

Just work with what you have to get to your .010 spec. What's going to happen when the shim cracks and comes out and the bolts loosens up. You can remove a little metal (and I mean a little) easier and safer than you can add a shim.

CB. So if I understand, you're saying do not add any shims. But when you say to "remove metal" what are you suggesting here? I'm not understanding.

 

[Michael Caravaglia]

After rereading your problem with the torque convertor run-out I am confused.
I always thought torque convertor run-out is how much the hub of the convertor wobbles as it is rotated one full revolution. It is measured with a dial indicator set against the hub.
The is no way that I know of that the flex plate has anything to do with convertor run out. Perhaps I am wrong.
How much can you move the torque convertor from as far back into the transmission as it will go, then pry it forward until it contacts the flex-plate.
That is a critical distance and may be what destroyed the old motor because it was too tight.

Tink, you're correct. From what I'm reading, the boss hub is the part of the converter with the tangs that seats into the transmission pump. With the dial indicator placed on the side of the boss hub, you turn the flywheel and measure the wobble. It needs to be less than 10/1000".

Apparently, one end of the converter rides around the pump shaft, on the transmission side, and the other side of the converter has a pilot shaft that's sitting inside the pilot hub on the crankshaft. So, the converter is basically spinning around the axis between the crankshaft and the transmission, with the flex-plate being the mechanism that's turning it all. So, since the converter is bolted to the flex-plate, and it's the flex-plate being the thing that's spinning the convertor, I would have to believe the flex-plate would play a critical role in the amount of wobble, no? It's a really weird setup.

As for your comment "How much can you move the torque convertor from as far back into the transmission as it will go, then pry it forward until it contacts the flex-plate." How would I know this distance unless the whole tractor was bolted together, with me inside? What am I missing?

 

[Tinkerer]

It isn't really a weird set up from my perspective, Micheal.
It is the only practical way the drive-line can be connected without self-destructing.
If it weren't for the flex plate a lot of force could be pushing the engine crankshaft forward.
Or, the opposite effect would be pulling the converter too forward and then the tang contact in the transmission would be dangerously short.
Those are extreme examples. But quite possible to create.
The tractor does have to be bolted together to measure the movement of the convertor from all the way rearward to all the way forward to the flex plate.
I suspect you may have a torque convertor that is not identical in dimensions to the OEM that was in the tractor when it was new.
That is just a guess because other things come into play. Such as the replacement engine dimensions not being identical to the original one.
You are right on in your description in regards to the convertor run out I think.
I don't think there would be any reference in the service manual about the run-out because that is controlled by the mfr. of the convertor.

 

[Swetz]

Michael,
I have been reading this thread since the beginning, and have, for the most part resisted chiming in, because I worked on these units so long ago. But, with your problem of centering the torque converter, it made me think of how we used to do it, so I looked it up for my 86 Ford 445A, which is a similar setup. Reading it, it comes back to me. We had a Ford tool with pins in it that would center the torque converter. with the bolts slightly loose there is a little play that allows you to slide the plate on the converter. I am attaching the procedure, which must surly be in your book somewhere...This is for my 445A, but I remember doing it on the 555 and 555As. We actually had the tool, which is not sold by New Holland any more. I would think though, that if you take your readings and loosen slightly and bump the converter, it may move enough?? I really hate to see you struggle like this!

 

[Tinkerer]

Hopefully you can locate or have that tool made somewhere.
Sometimes just leaving the flex-plate bolts loose on the convertor and turning the flywheel a revolution will center the plate up with the convertor.