Electric coming to your transit company?

[DMiller]

Brother in Law and I were talking last night, seems St Louis METRO bought four new All Electric battery powered buses. Are sitting on a lot unused as cannot recharge them except single unit over night(8 hours to recharge each for 4-5 hour usage). Has been tried on several yard sites and had several charging stations installed hopeful to have electric buses in service for the area, HOWEVER, when they plug in and switch on more than One of the 600A draw 480V chargers the local substations that feed the garage/service lots trips offline, sees the instant demand as a line fault and trips to protect itself. Local service provider has stated they will have to place special feeder services for Just the charging stations, 'At A Fee Base Increase' to feed Just the Charging Stations, METRO Balked. EACH charger draws 600A, instantaneous draw on initiation is close to 1000A. Has been considered to have 4160 service brought in and a different charging station installed at that voltage but also not cost effective. All for only 4(FOUR) test buses.

 

[The Peej]

Something doesn't sound right there. I suspect that's not the full story. there are all kind of things that can be done the soften the initial shock load

 

[Birken Vogt]

Yes, this does not sound right.

But it does highlight a problem, that the amount of energy that travels up and down the highway in 9000+ gallon tank trucks is far more energy than what travels over the electric wires, at least to our little town.

If the whole (public and private) fleet switched to electric, there would have to be a lot more tower lines and substations installed.

 

[DMiller]

Worked in a power station, if the system is typical for industrial, the loads shed as to their electrical demand when the power drops off(Hold in Relays Open) for HVAC, Air Compressors, etc. Those are restarted by a human after power recovers. The average amps 'Hit' from a large service as a Bus Garage with ALL the engines plugged into block heaters is less than 500a at 480v supply, that from my Enganear Brother. Take these chargers, they do not start soft, they are nothing more than a transformer(Rectifier) and supplies as demanded. 600a all at once and switch on more than one in rapid succession then BANG, substation opens. Did find out from a previous life contact enganear that lives here, there is NOTHING save add a 4160 or 7kv line Dedicated to the supply for these chargers, with a Instantaneous trip set point of 3500a and would survive, for no more than 4(FOUR) chargers, any greater number and the chargers themselves would have to have a dedicated supply substation.

 

[Truck Shop]

Wife worked for Pacific Power for 19 years as a service coordinator, the lockouts on power lines are there for surge.
Problem with this whole scenario-power companies, co-op's- rural electric, city and county plus federal have a worn out power grid. Power poles, transformers that use to
be change out under a fairly strict time line has been changed to only if it's in total fail mode. Most 7000 volt transmission lines are old as hell. The main transformers at sub stations
normal was two on hand that has been dropped in many cases to one. Power line crews cut, a lot of work is done by outside contractors like Michaels. The systems across the U.S.
are tired. The last major dam built on the Columbia River was 1971 and a few of the dams are reaching 100 years old.

 

[DMiller]

Bagnall Dam in MO is over 90, just had its latest go thru to pass for relicense. I can also attest to the Distribution systems being antiquated, nothing gets changed until fails unless Someone Else fronts the cash to improve or replace as in builds new facilities or needs support for a industry, buses do not equate that way.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Here we live in some of the earliest power generation and transmission country and many things on the system are 100 years old or near it. In fact the 115 kv line into town I spoke of is from the 1960s probably, but it taps off the original 115 kv that runs from the mountain power plants to San Francisco that was built around 1915, still has the original I believe COPPER conductors. There is also a 60 kv that feeds the other part of town which I believe was from the 1905 era, also copper conductors, petticoat insulators and leaning poles everywhere. They are spending millions or hundreds of millions since the fires to upgrade the 110 year old lines, also have done some work on the 100 year old stuff, but at that rate it's a long time to come current....

 

[Birken Vogt]

Some council in Sacramento recently passed, 7-2 vote, all new houses and buildings have to be all electric including restaurants. This in the land of cheap gas production. Of course the majority of power comes from gas burned in plants not far away. But better to be dependent on them and forced to pay their high prices than to burn cheap gas yourself.

News blurb: the poor will be hit the hardest by the artificial high energy costs because home heating is a bigger percent of their budget.

 

[excavator]

Some council in Sacramento recently passed, 7-2 vote, all new houses and buildings have to be all electric including restaurants. This in the land of cheap gas production. Of course the majority of power comes from gas burned in plants not far away. But better to be dependent on them and forced to pay their high prices than to burn cheap gas yourself.

News blurb: the poor will be hit the hardest by the artificial high energy costs because home heating is a bigger percent of their budget.

Typical. The government creates a crisis and then is the hero when they bail out those who cannot pay with money they stole from them in the first place. But it gets votes.

 

[Spud_Monkey]

When they decommission those buses I can use one the batteries for my solar system unless they are lead acid then they can shove them where the sun doesn't shine.

 

[DMiller]

AFAIK are Lithium Ion

 

[Spud_Monkey]

Sounds like they need to lower the C rate in bulk phase on the (BMS) Battery management system), it can be had. Bet you those are thousands of 18650 batteries which is old tech compare to the 21700 which has 46% more capacity and 15% more energy efficient.

 

[DMiller]

BIL said they made fork truck battery packs look small, six to a bus. He did not know voltage or motor draw values.

Did say tried a Different Site, popped the Substation safeties just as the other shops, on ONE bus.

 

[Spud_Monkey]

BIL said they made fork truck battery packs look small, six to a bus. He did not know voltage or motor draw values.

Did say tried a Different Site, popped the Substation safeties just as the other shops, on ONE bus.

Put in smaller charger and set the BMS to lower C rate which will take longer but don't go below 1C in doing it. If they can't do that I guess they need to move the buses to a larger city with larger sub station power.

 

[DMiller]

Was a suggestion by the electricians and electric service provider
Any less rate of charge and will take 16-24 hours to achieve a functional recharge per bus.
Are looking to all options and capabilities.

As to larger city or service provider, is in St Louis county, electricity provider is on of largest in nation. Distribution Substations have over current protections to protect first the equipment then the lines then the public surrounding the station followed by potential to cascade into other supplying Transmission Substations.

 

[Camshawn]

The local neighbourhood grid will not support an electric car in every garage. Add all the neighbourhoods together and….
A good career for a young person today is as a lineman. There is already a shortage of workers in the field and the pay is very high as a result

 

[DMiller]

Best option comment I heard was to UP the voltage for the charger, raise volts lower amps, go from 480v to 4160 or even to 7kv and decrease amps draw while still able to adjust output voltage to what the batteries require. Other option that is still being discussed with Metro is a Separate singular specialty capacity use substation on Their Dime just to charge the buses but that kind of removes the added savings value to the buses.

 

[Spud_Monkey]

Best option comment I heard was to UP the voltage for the charger, raise volts lower amps, go from 480v to 4160 or even to 7kv and decrease amps draw while still able to adjust output voltage to what the batteries require. Other option that is still being discussed with Metro is a Separate singular specialty capacity use substation on Their Dime just to charge the buses but that kind of removes the added savings value to the buses.

That requires a charger that hasn't been designed yet, we have yet to have a charge controller that can handle over 600V in solar panels.

 

[DMiller]

Pretty well the history of modern electric vehicles
Give Musk some time and he will figure it out.

 

[Spud_Monkey]

Looks as if everyone's problem will be fixed including the one near you!
https://www.reuters.com/business/au...-electric-buses-charging-stations-2021-06-24/