Dual Fuel Wisconsin V-4 won't start when hot

[2112]

I was kind of thinking the same thing, I picked one up last night. Probably not install until tomorrow, work late today

 

[TD24]

Heat, vibration, etc.
Replace the mica. (only place I ever found one was from another dist junked for other reasons)
Try it... If no go...
Then check the coil you have on it. If is has no internal resistor, get a NEW ECHLIN coil with built in resistor from NAPA.
Put it on. (None of the pics show any external resistor in the visible hookup, therefore you need a coil with one.)

Also, this air cooled engine does not throw off a lot of heat early.
Most LP set ups pipe coolant water thru the vaporizer to vaporize the LP from liquid to vapor.
Also, you mentioned you ran out of LP at last posting.
You could have been down to only vapor in tank. Engines will start and run momentarily on
a near empty tank of vapor. Then fail.
Fill your tank...
Replace the mica or temp tape the stalk.
Then swap coil for known good with internal resistor.
One of these should make a change.

 

[2112]

Got a NAPA coil # IC14SB

Yes I did get the tank filled to the brim (9.5 gallons in a 12 Gallon tank)

Temp tape? Do you mean Temperature or temporary? I was wondering if there is a paint I can use to insulate the rotor stalk?

 

[TD24]

Got a NAPA coil # IC14SB

Don't know the number, but surely you asked for 12V with internal resistor, and surely he gave you one.


Yes I did get the tank filled to the brim (9.5 gallons in a 12 Gallon tank)

Never knew the gallons, always bought it by the pound tank -20 lb, 33, and 40.


Temp tape? Do you mean Temperature or temporary? I was wondering if there is a paint I can use to insulate the rotor stalk?

Temporary.. Plain black vinyl electrical tape. From plate up, over the top end, back down to plate. Punch a hole for the bolt.
I have left several running with tape, but never knew how long it lasted. Probably until the points were changed again.

Just for laughs, why don't you put on the full gas bottle- Try it -If runs, kill and retry. Same thing, was not gas.
Insulate the points- try it - If runs, kill and retry. Same thing, was not gas supply or the insulation.
Install the coil - Try it - If runs, kill and retry. It cranks and runs fine- Problem was one of these three.

 

[2112]

Sorry to be so dense, do you mean to put the tape under the points assembly where it hangs on the pivot shaft?

I tried to sketch an arrow where I think you are telling me to place the insulating tape. Am I way off? are you saying to place it everywhere the points assembly makes contact with the plate?
.

Or did you mean under the stationary part? I labeled the insulator under that part "B". It appears to be in good condition.

 

[2112]

BTW, I filled the tank last Friday, did not affect the hot start at all.

 

[lantraxco]

No, that has the insulated terminal piece with the brown phenolic under it, riveted through, not much you can do there, except inspect visually and check the circuit electrically when hot.. the points have to have a good ground on the mounting plate.

 

[2112]

Then I am confused as to where I am to insulate. The inside of the distributor body only allowing the thru bolt to com thru?

I have read that paragraph over and over and can apply it to several locations.

 

[lantraxco]

I don't know, I think perhaps TD24 is talking about a different setup, but I could be wrong, have to wait and see if he sheds some light on it....

 

[2112]

yeah, I will wait for his input, I need a better grasp before I start taping things up.

Here are pics of the inside of the distributor body. The advance weights look rusty, well they are rusty, but move freely in and out. I shot some Boeshield on them last week but it seems to have already evaporated.
.

 

[Outasite]

It's posable that the rust in there is the root of your trouble! First the cam for the points looks awful,rusty rough,needs to be cleaned and polished,and just a light film of lube.There is a lot of rust in the bottom of the housing.If the pivot Pin for the points has corrosion,it may not have near the pressure to close the points properly to charge the coil.With the points off the plate,in your hand there should no resistance to the pivot pin,the point arm should swing freely.You can check for the points being insulated,with an ohm meter,when the points are open check to make sure there is no continuity from the arm to the base plate.set the points to .018 and make sure the contacts are clean and flat with each other.

 

[Delmer]

You say you have at least some spark when it's hot and not starting, so it's not something shutting off the ignition current. You can test that spark by the distance it will jump to the plug installed in the head. Do you smell propane in the exhaust when it's not starting? The starting fluid was "inconclusive"/bogged down, how about dribbling a teaspoon of gas into the intake and see if it fires when hot?

 

[TD24]

Sorry to be so dense, do you mean to put the tape under the points assembly where it hangs on the pivot shaft?

I tried to sketch an arrow where I think you are telling me to place the insulating tape. Am I way off? are you saying to place it everywhere the points assembly makes contact with the plate?
.

Or did you mean under the stationary part? I labeled the insulator under that part "B". It appears to be in good condition.

Sorry...
I am referring to the post-stub-riser or whatever mechanics outside of my area call it.

Loosen the bolt holding the condenser wire, the points set spring and remove the screw holding the points set to the plate.
Lift off the condenser wire and the points set.
Now remove the bolt that held the condenser wire and spring.
Lift off the metal covering the bolt was thru.
Underneath it should be a thin brown piece of mica insulating the bolt and all it held from the post-stub-riser.
(Brown if as old a dist as it seems to be-In a brand new dist it would be a white or clear plastic.)
If it is there, and appears solid, no cracks, all one piece, you can handle in your hand without it shattering,
then it is probably OK.
If not, lay it aside. Install/replace it with a piece of tape to serve its same function. Punch a hole for the bolt.

(Now as per Outasite... Sandpaper the lobes on the shaft clear of rust, then fine sand to polish.
Then LIGHTLY oil the lobes - Or, place a little dab of grease in the corner of the block on the points that rubs the lobes.
As the block wears down the grease will be drawn on the cam to lube till next replacement.)

Reassemble the points and condenser (Both brand new out of the box I hope)
Hope this makes sense as text.

 

[2112]

Points and condenser are brand new. The pic is of the set up before I disassembled it.

I will clean and lubricate weights, springs and rotor shaft.

On the tape; Is my objective to make sure that the condenser wire is grounded to the assembly plate but insulated from the points spring (thus the points spring would not be grounded at all)? Or am I trying to ground the condenser wire to the points spring, but keep both insulated from the assembly plate?

I know you are explaining this in detail, knowing my objective will help me not screw it up.

 

[TD24]

Best I can tell you is follow the directions and find the pieces of mica. Depending on what you do about it
(Good and continue to use/Bad and removed) replace it with tape.

I suppose the overall answer to your question is: Your objective is to replace the mica (if you had any) and if not, with tape
TO INSULATE THAT POST IT IS ON from all that is fastened on, to or thru it.

Do you have Skype on your computer? Do you have adequate "minutes" on cell of land line?
If yes to either, PM me and I will arrange to show you these steps.

 

[2112]

TO INSULATE THAT POST IT IS ON from all that is fastened on, to or thru it.
.

This is what I needed. I can do this.

I already put the new points and condenser on. The Mica gasket was between the condenser ground and the post, but the screw connected it to the post so the mica wasn't truly insulating it.....and the symptoms existed then as they do now with the new points and condenser.

Thank you.

 

[TD24]

OK... Re looked at your past 65 ...
I have been referring to a bolt.. Where your dist has a screw. Older Prestolites had a bolt.
(that is how tool truck sales made fortunes on the small "ignition" size wrenches).

When you loosen that screw you can remove the condenser wire, the connecting metal strip
atop the spring on the points, and that part of the points set.

Some dist plates have a hole in the mounted post for the screw-Some had a forked or split post.
On one you had to remove the bolt/screw to lift the threaded metal cover off- on the split/forked/slotted
one you just pulled the whole package up and off.

Someone chime in here and confirm or correct me, but in my limited experience the piece of mica straddled the post,
just as the metal with the threads for your screw does, thereby insulating the whole post from the attached parts.

However, after all the trials and non error during this experience, and the thing still will crank and run briefly, the
problem is probably in you LP.
Cold, cranks and runs briefly? Quits. Won't start?
Sits a period of time and then will repeat this.
A classic case of LP flowing, it is cold and refrigerates and ices the inside of the vaporizer and blocks any gas flow.
Sits and thaws, re crank and repeat.
Your pictures show a "Century" vaporizer. There is a push button on top, the primer. It is a sort of a reverse choke.
It does not cut air like a choke, it shoot additional LP in when pressed, enriching the mix.
Try this: crank it and as soon as it starts apply heat from a heat gun by blowing it over the vaporizer. This is to
warm the vaporizer and prevent/hamper freeze up of its insides. If some success, higher/longer heat till it will continue to run
a length of time.
If this works, go buy you a new vaporizer; remove and replace the old. Its innards would probably look similar to the distributors.
Easily kitted, but corrosion and stripped screws while opening up usually preclude repairing them.

 

[old-iron-habit]

I thought it ran fine until it was shut off, then would not restart. To me that eliminates freeze up unless it is freezing when shut off when there should be no flow. Perplexing to say the least.

 

[2112]

Correct, It starts when cold everytime. It will continue to run strong until I shut it down.

If I wait 30 minutes, it will start again, after it has cooled. Won't restart when hot.

The primer, which activates by a switch won't help, in fact it bogs it down like the starting fluid did. By bogging, I means it sounds as if I am flooding it.

The challenge will be to get the end of the points set and condenser wire not to ground out on the plate post thru the retaining screw.

 

[Delmer]

By "flooding it" do you mean it sounds like the engine is hydrolocking? kinda like diesel detonation? rrr, rrr, rrr, clunk, slow r-r-r rrr, clunk, ? That sounds like it's firing and either the starter is extremely weak, or the timing is way too advanced, or something is seriously wrong with the engine mechanically, high compression from carbon buildup?

When you try the primer or starting fluid, have you cranked the engine and THEN used the primer or a little shot of starting fluid? or did you use the primer/fluid and then crank it?