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D8H winter electrical situation

D

D8HCattle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
47
Location
Northeast
Good day all!

Here I am going to the brain trust first as my hands warm up by the fire and then to the manual.

D8H 6k hrs, New Cat Batteries in 2022, some new ground wire made in and around the Key’d disconnect I believe it was 4/0, maybe 6 also done when new batteries went in.

Progressive situation : Recent past… The dozer had a slight 1 second delay from the time Id flip the start switch to when the engine would turn over.. this started about 4 months ago during the summer. It had just sat for about 5 month during the winter… however I start it twice a month regardless if I'm using it or not as a Sunday routine.

Usually after first start of the day ( the start that would show signs of the 1 second delay) then the dozer would fire right up like normal.
At this point I was thinking maybe a sticky solenoid/bendix maybe time for a starter rebuild.

Today: Went to fire the machine up.. it had been sitting for a month since I did some ripping with it. I was -1F degree last night. All I heard was a “click” from the starter. First course of action was I put a charger batteries and tested their condition. 1 was at 80% and the other was at 60%. After some charging I got the batteries to 97%.

I also dismantled and cleaned all the connections at the starter. 4 wires run to my starter. 1 ground that eventually grounds on the frame rail next to the tool box. 1 small white wire that goes to a small 1/8 inch machine thread positioned next the the positive. The positive terminal has 2 wires on it… 1 being the large guage power cable and the other is a small red maybe 12 AWG sized wire. I cleaned and tightened all of them. Still just a click from the starter when I tried after accomplishing the above.

Suns going down and Im sitting on the machine thinking what to do next. Then I noticed… as I warm the glow plug using the starter switch I noticed the amp gauge does not show a discharge.. when I go to start the amp gauge does not show a discharge… like it use to. So now im thinking:

1. Bad starter Switch
2. Fuse?
3. Starter needs to be rebuilt

Before I got dark a 1530 here in Maine today I grab my cell phone flash light and start tracing wires/cable… checking for condition/shorts/fuse blocks. I find under the left cockpit platform forward of the where the Batteries sit.. but on the underside a “junction box” and on it says “Electrical Disconnect Plug Inside”. I assume that is just where two cat wire harnesses are joined.

Ladies and Gentleman, can you offer any advice or experience? I definitely could have troubleshot more but I was alone and loosing daylight. If anyone can share any info, system diagrams, parts to replace Id appreciate it. Thank you!!
 

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Georgia Iron

Georgia Iron

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
878
Location
USA - Georgia
Occupation
Concrete building slab and grading contractor
You need a volt meter to see if the starter is getting correct voltage when you turn the switch. Check it at the starter. If it is getting the correct voltage and the solenoid is getting the correct key voltage, either the starter is bad or the motor is under a load and the starter can not turn the motor over.

Also try jumping the solenoid if voltage is correct
 
Last edited:
G

grandpa

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
1,979
Location
northern minnesota
1. Make sure your confident your batteries are good.

2. Usually a slight delay in starting is a plate in your solenoid is getting burned to the point current doesn't get connected, but it burns in to make connection. The old solenoids you could flip the plate over and get by. The new ones are not flipable so then a new solenoid would be in order.

3. The glow plugs could be the switch, wiring, or the harness has could have come unplugged. Follow the wires back from the glow plugs and they should come to a plug in. Over time moisture can get in there and ruin it or it may just come unplugged.
 
Dave Neubert

Dave Neubert

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2018
Messages
1,660
Location
Monroe NC
I would run the ground directly to the starter and replace the solenoid. also check with volt meter for voltage drop
 
T

tctractors

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
2,415
Location
Worc U.K.
Read grandpa's post again as he has all points bang on, the heater plugs draw 5 amps per plug so you should see a 30 amp drop on the Amp gauge, the wire is common to play up that plugs in to the heater rail, the slow action from the start switch will be the contacts within the solenoid, you could easily fit new contacts inside but be aware there is a little spring on the center disc but easy done in frame.
 
D

Delmer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
8,891
Location
WI
Tinkerer said:
Are you turning the master switch off when you park the dozer ?
The batteries should not be discharged down to 60 and 80%.
Click to expand...
Agree, if the batteries are disconnected, they should last take all winter to discharge down to 60%. I wouldn't start that unless you're going to work it an hour, or you have to use it. If you want the batteries charged and ready to go, disconnect the ground and put a solar panel on it.
 
5

56wrench

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Messages
2,127
Location
alberta
In my opinion starting a machine twice a month and not using it is a waste of time. You’re probably doing it more harm than good. Remember, until the engine warms up, it’s getting unfiltered oil to the pressurized parts because the filter bypass is open until the oil warms and thins enough to flow through the filters. As well, the cylinders run cold until its run sufficiently long enough to warm up to full operating temperature. Those big engines especially take a long time to get there. Cold cylinders running cold can lead to excessive cylinder wear, carbonned up and sticking rings, carbonned valve guides, etc. I used to start mine and let it run at low idle for as long as it takes for the water temp gauge to move into the low green range. I absolutely hate seeing all the videos where the guy revs an engine up as soon as it starts until it runs smooth and then does it a few more times just to hear it. If it was my machine, I’d grab him off there and educate him promptly or send him down the road. Those old engines are so costly to fix, they need to last as long as possible and need to be taken care of and not abused. As long as the exhaust is capped with a good pail or can, they can sit for a long time with no ill effects. This is my opinion, maybe others don’t agree but as long as i’m the guy that owns the machine anybody who runs anything of mine does it my way. As you can tell, I’m feeling cranky this morning
 
Mquinista

Mquinista

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2022
Messages
266
Location
Europe
hehe,
We had a similar problem .... out of nothing engine did not turn , while it was ok hours before. We stopped the machine to fix exaust pipe, and fix the alternator wich had gone bad twice in 6 month.
Happended to be one bad "new Battery". A new set of batteries were installed in the machine, but at the time the alternator was not working, we fix it and forgot about it, until the day the starter didn´t turn.
after some research we find out alternator to be broken again.
Suddendly things were nothing making sense... as testing on the battteries show good voltage. we ended up repairing alternator a 3rd time and starter was checked.
Then all of a sudden we found out one battery (of the new set) was damaged, it would hold voltage like 13 but never reached the 14 wich caused the alternator voltage regulator to burn(aparently this alternator does not has aperage limitator) , and when asked to operate it fell to 8 or 9 , suddendly and would show 12 after that... quite strange. replaced battey and problem solved.
This member problem might be related to a bad ground, or a faulty Key switch, that may come about in winter...
The key switch, so as the starter contactor can be troubleshooted by jump starting at the starter solenoid. as this machine shall have GWD in the starter and 24Volt DCT from battery.

In winter ... every piece of equipment shows problems with batteries if not operated every day, solution is to store batteries in a place where they can stay at 15ºC.

regards
 
Last edited:
D

D8HCattle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
47
Location
Northeast
grandpa said:
1. Make sure your confident your batteries are good.

2. Usually a slight delay in starting is a plate in your solenoid is getting burned to the point current doesn't get connected, but it burns in to make connection. The old solenoids you could flip the plate over and get by. The new ones are not flipable so then a new solenoid would be in order.

3. The glow plugs could be the switch, wiring, or the harness has could have come unplugged. Follow the wires back from the glow plugs and they should come to a plug in. Over time moisture can get in there and ruin it or it may just come unplugged.
Click to expand...
Well my battery tester and charger seemed to be the problem for the most part along with weak batteries.

I removed the batteries and put them on a low amp charger for a few days each… reassembled and the Dozer fired up like nothing.

when trouble shooting I was reading 80% and 60% on each battery… turns out they were both almost dead.
 
D

D8HCattle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
47
Location
Northeast
Mquinista said:
hehe,
We had a similar problem .... out of nothing engine did not turn , while it was ok hours before. We stopped the machine to fix exaust pipe, and fix the alternator wich had gone bad twice in 6 month.
Happended to be one bad "new Battery". A new set of batteries were installed in the machine, but at the time the alternator was not working, we fix it and forgot about it, until the day the starter didn´t turn.
after some research we find out alternator to be broken again.
Suddendly things were nothing making sense... as testing on the battteries show good voltage. we ended up repairing alternator a 3rd time and starter was checked.
Then all of a sudden we found out one battery (of the new set) was damaged, it would hold voltage like 13 but never reached the 14 wich caused the alternator voltage regulator to burn(aparently this alternator does not has aperage limitator) , and when asked to operate it fell to 8 or 9 , suddendly and would show 12 after that... quite strange. replaced battey and problem solved.
This member problem might be related to a bad ground, or a faulty Key switch, that may come about in winter...
The key switch, so as the starter contactor can be troubleshooted by jump starting at the starter solenoid. as this machine shall have GWD in the starter and 24Volt DCT from battery.

In winter ... every piece of equipment shows problems with batteries if not operated every day, solution is to store batteries in a place where they can stay at 15ºC.

regards
Click to expand...
Turns out this is very similar to what my problem ended up being... minus the alternator issue.
 
D

D8HCattle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2021
Messages
47
Location
Northeast
56wrench said:
In my opinion starting a machine twice a month and not using it is a waste of time. You’re probably doing it more harm than good. Remember, until the engine warms up, it’s getting unfiltered oil to the pressurized parts because the filter bypass is open until the oil warms and thins enough to flow through the filters. As well, the cylinders run cold until its run sufficiently long enough to warm up to full operating temperature. Those big engines especially take a long time to get there. Cold cylinders running cold can lead to excessive cylinder wear, carbonned up and sticking rings, carbonned valve guides, etc. I used to start mine and let it run at low idle for as long as it takes for the water temp gauge to move into the low green range. I absolutely hate seeing all the videos where the guy revs an engine up as soon as it starts until it runs smooth and then does it a few more times just to hear it. If it was my machine, I’d grab him off there and educate him promptly or send him down the road. Those old engines are so costly to fix, they need to last as long as possible and need to be taken care of and not abused. As long as the exhaust is capped with a good pail or can, they can sit for a long time with no ill effects. This is my opinion, maybe others don’t agree but as long as i’m the guy that owns the machine anybody who runs anything of mine does it my way. As you can tell, I’m feeling cranky this morning
Click to expand...
I appreciate that… im starting to re-think this process. When i do start it i also move it but i usu dont work it you know.. just go throught the gears as they say and park it again.
 
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