D8H engine oil pump failure, what to do?

[Bullcat]

This machine has sat for a couple months and I went to start it to move it and the engine was locked up. We had a lot of rain with wind since it last ran so I figured the wind flipped the the rain cap on exhaust stack and rain water had ran in. Had this happen before but never any issues other than black sooty water blown all over the hood when started. The temps here recently have been below freezing, so I'm thinking ice in cylinder. I put a torpedo space heater on engine to thaw it out for a few hours and I then just lightly bump the starter, motor turns just a small amount ( couple inches at fan blade) so I let it sit for awhile and repeat this several times over a period of time figuring that I'm pushing water past the rings slowly without damaging any parts. It finally freed up so I cranked it over with the starter with governor off to clear any water out. Then I started it, fired right up and sounded good, but thought it was strange that no water slobbered out of exhaust. Letting it ide I went to pick up my space heater and drop cord and within about 2 minutes from start up I heard a short sqwauk from the engine and it proceeded to come and go every so many seconds, I went to investigate where it was coming from and realized it was the turbo and quick glanced at oil pressure gauge and zero pressure I shut it down. Feeling really sick now I disconnected oil line to guage and cranked over engine with starter, no oil. Yes it has oil in pan. OK, what happened or what siezed and broke. The engine never seized and ran at idle maybe 3 or 4 minutes before I shut it down, fingers crossed. Turbo might be damaged? Feeling a little sick, this was a good running D8H. I don't have time to tear into it now but wanted to see if anyone here has knowledge to what might have broke in or to the oil pump. Or any other thoughts. Thanks.

 

[Delmer]

...figuring that I'm pushing water past the rings...
...thought it was strange that no water slobbered out of exhaust.

Assuming it was water in the cylinder, some had already leaked into the pan and the ice either plugged the intake, or broke the oil pump.

I'll let the experts speculate on what damage you did to the engine, there was a similar, older smaller Cat, that had no oil for a bit not too far back in the threads, last I remember he thought he dodged the bullet?

I'd plug your heater back in until the oil pan is warm, then drain any water, and try it again, at least crank it until the oil comes out or doesn't.

 

[tctractors]

Well the engine does have side plates on the 1 side to get into the B/Ends to check them, the sump pan has plates on as well to inspect the suction bell, its possible to check the pump drive shaft and coupling through this area, get someone to spin the starter for you as you look at the drive coupling, the engine runs 30psi H/Idle oil pressure when warm it does have an over pressure R/Valve for cold start up set at around 85-90psi, it is Not uncommon on cold start ups for this long drive shaft to fail.
tctractors

p.s. Don't put you hand into the oil pump drive area on cranking thinking you might feel the shaft turn as the rods come low.

 

[kshansen]

p.s. Don't put you hand into the oil pump drive area on cranking thinking you might feel the shaft turn as the rods come low.

Dang it! Give a warning before posting something like that! Just reading it made me jump!

I made the mistake of putting my hand inside a little V4 Wisconsin engine while turning it slowly by hand, just the tension on the camshaft from the valve springs pushing on the lifters was enough for it to jump ahead a few degrees. Just enough to grab my finger. Lucky Norm was right across the room to come over and turn it back enough to get me loose, no damage, but don't think a D-8 would be as forgiving!

 

[zbo2]

I had a car engine one time that had Ice build up on the pickup screen... must have been pretty thick too cause I had it in the heat for a day when I pulled the pan to see what was going on... and that's when I saw the chunk of ice..... put a torch on it and buttoned it back up and it was fine after that...

 

[tctractors]

I had to say It as things happen fast when you least expect them, then the bit of Kit becomes the "Doom Ship" that no one wants to go near as it has the " Hex " and only fit for the chop, we had a Volvo Dump Truck once take on the "Doom Ship" monica' any Fitter touch it always ended up loosing weight (Fingers or bits of) or Blood by the pint (U.K. Pints) plus the thing was always ley on its side tipped over even on the flat, it managed to smash into another Dumper near head on empty at speed due to the dust cloud or bad "Ju Ju" the other Dumper was Megga loaded with big chunks torn out of both of them, wheels ripped to bits and rad stacks clubbed up I fixed the loaded dumper then turned the Hex Machine to a parts storage unit, even the Muck Shift Forman (Slasher) was happy. tctractors

 

[68M]

D8H's have a long shaft that drives the oil pump. There is a splined coupling near the pump that does wear out to the point that it will stop driving. I've seen this several times, the most resent in the last twelve months on a friends D8H. His one ceased the turbo first then run the main bearings. As tctractors said, the first thing is to check this pump drive.

 

[nicky 68a]

I hope it's not too badly damaged

 

[turbo8781]

this is one of the few resons that i like the old pony motor cats. you can let the pony motor turn it in decompresion untill oil presure comes up, almost like having a prelube system

 

[farmerlund]

Yikes! That would make me queasy. I have a nice D8H also, that I am very careful with. I would get it into a warm shop if possible. and investigate it completely before starting again. Hope you got lucky. Keep us posted.

 

[nicky 68a]

Reading this thread prompted me to check on my own D8's.They have been stood since October and fired up only once since.
I park them on drystanding over winter and have little metal sheets to cover the turbo couplings over winter.
I am also carefully to have snug fit bonnets around the elbow to help keep water from dripping off the bonnet and down the coupling spacers.
They still get fired up once a month.

 

[DPete]

D8H's have a long shaft that drives the oil pump. There is a splined coupling near the pump that does wear out to the point that it will stop driving. I've seen this several times, the most resent in the last twelve months on a friends D8H. His one ceased the turbo first then run the main bearings. As tctractors said, the first thing is to check this pump drive.

I've seen this also, it's a hidden issue that can be deadly, we always replaced the shaft and coupling when we had the pan down if there was any visible wear.

 

[tctractors]

A trick I used to always do on the little coupling is to get 2 new couplings then cut 1 in half welding both halves to the complete coupling, this would stop the common thing with the locating bolt failing and the drive ending up un-hitched, this little lash up fills the spline drive area neatly, the drive shaft costs around £400 from CAT U.K. I think? the drive gear and thrust collar are fitted with taper pins that need a bit of mig weld touched up to them to get rid of a nagging worry as you try to sleep.
tctractors

 

[Bullcat]

I finally got around to pulling the pan and what I found was the bracket up front that the oil pump drive idler gear is mounted on had broke and then wedged the gear into the front cover. I'll need a bracket and idler gear and repair the front cover. I checked a rod bearing and they look great, so I caught it in time. Ok , I can not find anything that may have caused this, did water/ice in the front sump lock up the gears? I find it hard to believe ice could lock those gears up, but maybe it could. It did have water in the front sump when the pan was pulled but not sure if it was in there from rain or from steam cleaning before coming in shop with the hole in the front cover. When I ordered the parts, the parts guy said he'd seen many of these brackets broke but didn't say why they broke. The front sump looks like a good place to have a second drain plug on the pan. Incidentally the tractor was parked on a light down hill grade, front end down hill. Anyone else seen this before and why? Thanks.

 

[Bullcat]

Also the oil pump is not locked up and doesn't show signs of having been locked up unless ice had done it. No water came out when I cracked open the drain plug though. Water was in the front sump, but did it come in from rain or from the steam cleaning? It was very sludgy in front sump like it had been there awhile.

 

[lantraxco]

Reading this thread prompted me to check on my own D8's.They have been stood since October and fired up only once since.
I park them on drystanding over winter and have little metal sheets to cover the turbo couplings over winter.
I am also carefully to have snug fit bonnets around the elbow to help keep water from dripping off the bonnet and down the coupling spacers.
They still get fired up once a month.

No offense please Nicky 68a, and I will admit to doing this myslef when no one is around to see it... do you hug your machines a bit sometimes? To me old iron is like old work horses, they're friendly, helpful, and need to feel a loving hand now and then to keep them healthy and happy

 

[nicky 68a]

Ha ha.No offense taken mate.
They have been working for about 3 months this year so far and we've seen no ice yet